Hello! Last year I made an alternate aviation thread discussing WWI with Italy in the Central Powers. Here I am gonna jump forward a few decades to post-war, except in a timeline where the Axis (at least in Europe) have won. I still think that development and research into advanced designs would have happened even in the event of a win because the inability to invade the UK and especially the United States means that air raids (one of the main driving forces for more advanced designs) would still happen, amongst advanced allied fighter designs too.
NOTE: Assume all of the designs I mention would be using German materiel in place of the OTL WAllied materiel.
Focke-Wulf:
Obviously the iconic Ta-183 project comes to mind:
Now the Ta-183 was theoretically a good design, but post-war testing of swept wing aircraft from OTL suggests that some issues could be present. This includes stability issues at low speeds and stall concerns. If the design does work, it would still likely have a performance at max of late production MiG-9s and early F-84s (not bad for what would be one of the first jets). This is with the added bonus of a swept wing, of course.
To rectify the design to be better, it would need to evolve. Fortunately, Kurt Tank actually gave us an idea of that:
Meet the Pulqui II, the second major Argentinian jet design, and also the second by a European (the first being from Dewoitine). The Pulqui II was designed by Kurt Tank and was an evolution of the Ta-183. Aside from the wing design caused stalls at certain angles of attack, this would likely be a better working design. This would probably appear by the early-50s. Now obviously aside from maybe exports "Pulqui II" wouldn't be the German name. Perhaps Ta-283? The design most heavily associated with this name is actually a misnomer as "Ta-283" was never used OTL, which possibly leaves it for here.
The ultimate design (at least that we can more directly infer) would be the bottom design in this picture. It would be an all-weather interceptor with a stronger engine, and according to the forum* this appears on this likely would have performance similar to the F-86K.
A decade later we have this design:
The HAL HF-24 Marut was an Indian jet fighter design that reached production. While this was admittedly underperforming for the 1960s, it did serve well in the ground attack role. In fact, being a bit slower as a ground attack aircraft at the time wasn't uncommon.
Messerschmitt:
With Messerschmitt their notable P.1101 comes to mind:
This incomplete aircraft would be taken to the US and almost exactly copied into the Bell X-5 OTL:
While the design proved fast, and the swing wing worked (though the P.1101 could only change the incidence on the ground), the design was flawed. It was fast and light but the layout of the aircraft was dangerous. One of the prototypes was destroyed in a spin that could not be saved. The Me P.1101 ITTL would maybe just be stuck as a research aircraft, and if it is used as a fighter it would probably be stuck with lesser wing sweeps for safety reasons.
In the end, a better design that Messerschmitt would probably move forward with is something along the lines of the Me P.1110 (swastika warning):
This design had two versions with a V-tail and a conventional tail, and each version had a difference intake for the engine. I think the more conventional of the two would probably work the best. This also seems logical considering that one of the Messerschmitt designers would go to Sweden and work on the SAAB Lansen.
Eventually Messerschmitt would (as the man himself did in Egypt) probably create an aircraft like this:
The HA-300, originally developed in Spain and then moved to Egypt after an initial cancellation, this light fighter was very fast and (mostly) up to the requirements of the time. This is the extent of how (imo) we can view Messerschmitt's developments ITTL.
Other:
West Germany in OTL developed some VTOL aircraft:
Here are just a few of them, with several companies combining to form the bottom aircraft, the EWR VJ 101. VTOL aircraft became a huge priority at one point in Western Germany because of the Warsaw Pact being the closest to them. Therefore, interceptors that could takeoff this fast were desperately needed. In an Axis victory timeline whether these would be looked into is anyone's guess, but I don't discount it.
Bombers:
I will mostly focus on Junkers for this part, mainly due to what happened with OKB-1:
The Ju-287 was evolved upon by German designers that were taken by the USSR and pressed into work. Here we can see a good idea of how this plane would evolve. This would likely be an early post-war tactical bomber for Germany. The EF-132, which did have some glider testing in the USSR would be a likely heavy bomber. The OKB-1 150 could be an early-1950s design.
To address the elephant in the room:
Obviously this long range heavy bomber design must be mentioned. This is a bit tough. First generation jet engines could not make long ranges because they were not very fuel efficient. As time would go on this could, however, mature into a realistic design. The YB-49 proved that a design like this was flyable. With time this could work.
So this is my little thread detailing this not too commonly explored idea. I like aviation, and with alternate history why not put this here!
Any thoughts?
----
*https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/iae-27-31-pulqui-i-and-ii.3386/
(I take no credit for any pictures that appear in this post.)
NOTE: Assume all of the designs I mention would be using German materiel in place of the OTL WAllied materiel.
Focke-Wulf:
Obviously the iconic Ta-183 project comes to mind:
Now the Ta-183 was theoretically a good design, but post-war testing of swept wing aircraft from OTL suggests that some issues could be present. This includes stability issues at low speeds and stall concerns. If the design does work, it would still likely have a performance at max of late production MiG-9s and early F-84s (not bad for what would be one of the first jets). This is with the added bonus of a swept wing, of course.
To rectify the design to be better, it would need to evolve. Fortunately, Kurt Tank actually gave us an idea of that:
Meet the Pulqui II, the second major Argentinian jet design, and also the second by a European (the first being from Dewoitine). The Pulqui II was designed by Kurt Tank and was an evolution of the Ta-183. Aside from the wing design caused stalls at certain angles of attack, this would likely be a better working design. This would probably appear by the early-50s. Now obviously aside from maybe exports "Pulqui II" wouldn't be the German name. Perhaps Ta-283? The design most heavily associated with this name is actually a misnomer as "Ta-283" was never used OTL, which possibly leaves it for here.
The ultimate design (at least that we can more directly infer) would be the bottom design in this picture. It would be an all-weather interceptor with a stronger engine, and according to the forum* this appears on this likely would have performance similar to the F-86K.
A decade later we have this design:
The HAL HF-24 Marut was an Indian jet fighter design that reached production. While this was admittedly underperforming for the 1960s, it did serve well in the ground attack role. In fact, being a bit slower as a ground attack aircraft at the time wasn't uncommon.
Messerschmitt:
With Messerschmitt their notable P.1101 comes to mind:
This incomplete aircraft would be taken to the US and almost exactly copied into the Bell X-5 OTL:
While the design proved fast, and the swing wing worked (though the P.1101 could only change the incidence on the ground), the design was flawed. It was fast and light but the layout of the aircraft was dangerous. One of the prototypes was destroyed in a spin that could not be saved. The Me P.1101 ITTL would maybe just be stuck as a research aircraft, and if it is used as a fighter it would probably be stuck with lesser wing sweeps for safety reasons.
In the end, a better design that Messerschmitt would probably move forward with is something along the lines of the Me P.1110 (swastika warning):
This design had two versions with a V-tail and a conventional tail, and each version had a difference intake for the engine. I think the more conventional of the two would probably work the best. This also seems logical considering that one of the Messerschmitt designers would go to Sweden and work on the SAAB Lansen.
Eventually Messerschmitt would (as the man himself did in Egypt) probably create an aircraft like this:
The HA-300, originally developed in Spain and then moved to Egypt after an initial cancellation, this light fighter was very fast and (mostly) up to the requirements of the time. This is the extent of how (imo) we can view Messerschmitt's developments ITTL.
Other:
West Germany in OTL developed some VTOL aircraft:
Here are just a few of them, with several companies combining to form the bottom aircraft, the EWR VJ 101. VTOL aircraft became a huge priority at one point in Western Germany because of the Warsaw Pact being the closest to them. Therefore, interceptors that could takeoff this fast were desperately needed. In an Axis victory timeline whether these would be looked into is anyone's guess, but I don't discount it.
Bombers:
I will mostly focus on Junkers for this part, mainly due to what happened with OKB-1:
The Ju-287 was evolved upon by German designers that were taken by the USSR and pressed into work. Here we can see a good idea of how this plane would evolve. This would likely be an early post-war tactical bomber for Germany. The EF-132, which did have some glider testing in the USSR would be a likely heavy bomber. The OKB-1 150 could be an early-1950s design.
To address the elephant in the room:
Obviously this long range heavy bomber design must be mentioned. This is a bit tough. First generation jet engines could not make long ranges because they were not very fuel efficient. As time would go on this could, however, mature into a realistic design. The YB-49 proved that a design like this was flyable. With time this could work.
So this is my little thread detailing this not too commonly explored idea. I like aviation, and with alternate history why not put this here!
Any thoughts?----
*https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/iae-27-31-pulqui-i-and-ii.3386/
(I take no credit for any pictures that appear in this post.)
