Realistic Islamic Europe?

- Byzantine navy. Even if damaged, it allowed Byzance to prevent an Islamic takeover of Central and Eastern Mediterranea. It didn't prevented regular raids on Italy of course, but it prevented a lasting conquest eventually.


I can't see this navy being an issue in the event of the fall of Constantinople, though. . .
 
I can't see this navy being an issue in the event of the fall of Constantinople, though. . .

If Constantinople fails, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't give the keys to the whole navy saying "why, yes, you won after all".
If the city falls, the navy itself would likely just run out, the Arab navy (that while having won decisive battles).

Furthermore, you had several other naval bases in the empire : Carthage, by exemple, comes in mind, but as well Italy or Greece.

On a related note, I doubt a fall of Constantinople on Arab hands would be followed by renewed efforts in Africa : the bulk of imperial forces would be still in Balkans, and conquest up to Vardar would ask to divert the efforts deployed OTL in southern Mediterranean coast at the cost of seeing the city taken back eventually.
 
There are lots of potential PODs that could give you an Islamic Europe by 1500. An earlier collapse of Byzantium is one possibility. A Moorish victory at Poitiers in 732 is another one, though more recent historical work suggests that it's importance has been overrated.

Pointers may indeed be overrated. Arguably a more significant factor in the halting of Islamic spread into Europe was the domination of the Mediterranean by Italian City States. Islam's spread into Italy was halted by them - muslims from spain conquered as far north as Corsica, but only held them temporarily as Genoa, Pisa and Amalfi were able to push them out.

Consider the following;
-Italian maritime republics fail to develop/gain naval superiority in the Mediterranean (not sure how this would be achievedl probably a muslim naval power that could simply field more and better ships than they)
-Norman invasion of southern Italy butterflied away (possibly by aforementioned muslim naval power)
-Lengthy periods where muslims dominate commerce, academia, or just humiliate Christian monarchs enough that their vassals start aligning with the muslims during rebellions frequently.

In this scenario I expect that you could end up with islamic ruling classes (and possibly merchantile classes as well) all across the Mediterranean basin. Northern European states probably remain Christian but aren't part of an organized church (unless the papacy moves north, they'll likely all be parts of independent congregations in the style of early christian Norway) and islam doesn't really make headway into Hungary unless dramatic conquest happens.
Islam probably undergoes more schisms than OTL due to greater cultural overlap - possibly resulting in the establishment of a HRE-style european Caliphate based in Italy.

I think you'll need multiple POD's and a pretty early head start to make all of Europe islamic. Simply an earlier collapse of the Byzantines probably won't cut it; Bulgaria and Hungary (whatever incarnation they may be in) will likely offer heavy resistance. In any case, as with the middle east before recent times when radical demographic shifts led to most non-muslims emigrating, there will likely be significant non-muslim populations across Europe, being a majority in many places.
 
With increased Arab raiding and possibly increased Arab territorial control of southern France, I'm not sure about OTL's Crusades. There'll be targets much closer to home.

I thought about that, but Christians were crusading all over the place even with the Muslims running the vast majority of Iberia. Also, there was some "prestige" for owning/governing the Holy Land, so it would still be very important.

Even if TTL features a larger Reconquista involving the Franks (and eventually Normans) pushing southward along with the Christian states of Spain doing likewise, that'll divert a lot of Crusading attention away from the Middle East and possibly even the Baltic.

That is a possibility, but we could still see the Byzantines and various kings (and maybe even a pope or two) try and pressure people to continue to push in the Holy Land. It would largely depend on the geopolitical situation at the time.

The former will have its effects on Byzantium--possibly an earlier fall of the Empire or Turkish incursions into Europe--and depending on how things go with the Mongols and Eurasian steppe nomads further north, things could get interesting on the Baltic.

Some great POD potential right there.

(To be fair, Orthodoxy might be in a better position to take advantage than Islam.)

Maybe, maybe not. I'm not terribly familiar with eastern European history. :eek:
 
One thing I would like to see would be the conversion of the Basques to Islam.

Well, it happened OTL : dynasties like Banu Qasi were islamized vascones.
Furthermore, a takeover of Vasconia isn't too far-fetched : a strong garrison in Pampelune under direct control of the wali (contrary to OTL where it seems that while a garrison was present, not unlike Gothia the neighbouring cities and countryside was let to local christian rulers) could do it.

I doubt it would be translated by a lasting conquest north of Pyrenees, for aforementioned reasons but you have real chances to end with a southern Vasconia under Al-Andalusian control at least for a time.

Now this control risks to be challenged : Pampelune had strong walls and could last against Christian campaigns for some times, but the land itself wasn't really interesting and the forces present here relativly weak. Even under direct control, the vascones are likely to revolt if it can help them (a far frankish rule could be better than a direct cordoban administration).

I suppose that Banu Qasi (if not butterflied) would anyway quickly take control of the region, creating a muladi control over Ebre's valley including OTL Navarre. A possible agreement (rather than Alliance) with Asturians (in order to prevent attacks on it, while Cordoba may be tempted to grab territories back as OTL) is still plausible.

Now, I couldn't see it last beyond the XI century, but it should be enough to have at least islamized vascones elites on OTL Navarre.
 
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