Realistic Independent New York Borders

But it would be the kind of name people would be thinking of.

A question that comes up on borders - what kind of "claim" are we talking about? New York can insist it has a right to whatever, but that doesn't mean that those who are in charge there (let alone those who live there) are listening.

And it going about it by force needs some sense of what the context is - New York vs. Connecticut is one thing, but New York vs. a coalition (even if not a political union) of the rest of the ex-colonies is another.

Well it'd probably Cherrim at least western Connecticut and Vermont but it would have to fight Nee England for them which would be a pretty equal fight plus if they Eton they would have a bunch of disgruntled people under their thumb who just cast off their last imperial overlords.
 
I'm not convinced at all that New York would join up with New England. Firstly, New England would likely become a federation, and I can't imagine they would want New York having such dominance compared to the smaller states. Secondly, New England was very strongly congregationalist and would be sceptical of the Episcopalian New York. Thirdly, New England's economic center of gravity is Eastwards facing, while New York is southwards facing and has more trade links with Philadelphia. Fourthly, New England is very WASPish, and wouldn't like the ethnically mixed New York as much. I think it's a lot more likely New York would join up with Pennsylvania and New Jersey.
 

Japhy

Banned
In the context of a failed Articles, New York can pull off controlling the Hudson Valley and Long Island. Maybe East Jersey, but certainly not Western New York or the Adirondacks.
 
While their is some historic justification to use the name New England (the Dominion of New England having comprised all of area on the map excluding the part of Pennsylvania), I'd go with something like the Mid-Atlantic Repulic, Atlantica or Columbia.

That would be interesting if someone tried that for a TL.
 
Well it'd probably Cherrim at least western Connecticut and Vermont but it would have to fight Nee England for them which would be a pretty equal fight plus if they Eton they would have a bunch of disgruntled people under their thumb who just cast off their last imperial overlords.

Western Connecticut is ASB, for reasons I already mentioned. Essentially, CT is not in NYC's orbit at that point and by the 1700s the borders were largely settled.
 
I'm not convinced at all that New York would join up with New England. Firstly, New England would likely become a federation, and I can't imagine they would want New York having such dominance compared to the smaller states. Secondly, New England was very strongly congregationalist and would be sceptical of the Episcopalian New York. Thirdly, New England's economic center of gravity is Eastwards facing, while New York is southwards facing and has more trade links with Philadelphia. Fourthly, New England is very WASPish, and wouldn't like the ethnically mixed New York as much. I think it's a lot more likely New York would join up with Pennsylvania and New Jersey.

Ah, but even then in New England there's quite a bit of diversity, such as the nonconformist Rhode Island. :p What is more, Long Island essentially intrudes into the waters of any independent New England (largely due to Fisher's Island, which although is part of New York State would might as well be very New England). Not only that, but much of Upstate was settled from New England. So for a maximum New England it could work, with Boston and NYC complementing each other (as well as rivals).
 
Ah, but even then in New England there's quite a bit of diversity, such as the nonconformist Rhode Island. :p What is more, Long Island essentially intrudes into the waters of any independent New England (largely due to Fisher's Island, which although is part of New York State would might as well be very New England). Not only that, but much of Upstate was settled from New England. So for a maximum New England it could work, with Boston and NYC complementing each other (as well as rivals).

It wouldn't work. New York is just too big for New England.
 

Japhy

Banned
It wouldn't work. New York is just too big for New England.

Not when one realizes at the time New York can't possibly control all of its territory on its own. Power projection of authority into the interior is pretty much impossible.
 
The Hudson River Valley though extends well up to Upstate and splits off to the Great Lakes. With Albany squatting on the confluence of the Mowhawk the New Yorkers can hold it all.
 
The Hudson River Valley though extends well up to Upstate and splits off to the Great Lakes. With Albany squatting on the confluence of the Mowhawk the New Yorkers can hold it all.

That doesn't translate into being able to muster the force to compel those to the north to obey if they decide to go their own way, though.
 

Japhy

Banned
The Hudson River Valley though extends well up to Upstate and splits off to the Great Lakes. With Albany squatting on the confluence of the Mowhawk the New Yorkers can hold it all.

Albany is pretty much the end of the line for New York Power.

1) The Hudson's end of navigation is a handful of miles north of Albany. Going up for Fort Edward requires several portages at the time (Now thanks to works, just two) over the falls north of Troy, and then even you're still 20 miles away from the End of Lake George. Even if you get up to Lake/George and Lake Champlain, there are no easy paths outside of the river/lake valley you just have to go all the way up to Montreal.

2) The Mohawk until the 20th Century was for practical purposes either a dry ditch or a canoe-creek for most of the year. Beyond that you have tax revolting farmers, and wilderness which without assured access to the Ohio country turns into from the perspective of Early New Yorkers, is absolutely useless. And of course its territory that they would have no means of enforcing power and authority in.

3) Until the development of the Constitution, New York's power to enforce itself went nowhere past Forth Johnson (Near Modern Amsterdam) and the old Bemis Heights Defenses (Near Modern Saratoga Springs). Besides Native peoples and Vermonters, and Loyalist Holdouts the only new settlers coming into the North Country and Western New York were New Englanders who weren't much interested in listening to New York.

So, without the assurances of the Federal Government, no, New York does not have the ability to continue to have authority over its normal borders. New York City is not destined to be the greatest in northern North America, and New York is not destined to build a canal or assure massive development outside of the NYC-Kingston-Albany corridor of the Hudson River Valley.
 
So, let's say in a scenario where there is a smaller United States or a broken up Confederation, can New York somehow get its western portions in a treaty?

Kind of like an assurance from the other countries that it is New York's to settle over time?
 

Japhy

Banned
So, let's say in a scenario where there is a smaller United States or a broken up Confederation, can New York somehow get its western portions in a treaty?

Kind of like an assurance from the other countries that it is New York's to settle over time?

Can they get a scrap of paper? Theoretically yes, though there's no reason anyone should be bothered giving them even close to all of their claims.

To put it this way, for practical purposes modern Rochester, NY might well have been in Michigan for all their ability to hold it vis a vis their other claims.

Even if they were theoretically able to secure large borders they have absolutely no way of enforcing them short of war. Imagine if you will, the Hampshire Grants situation writ large.
 
Though there is a factor in the style of New England's economic interests. There was a. Deal of opposition to the purchase of Louisiana and before that concerning the border with Spanish Louisiana by primarily merchant and ship oriented industries during the 1790s time frame over fear of losing bodies that went West instead of staying in New England.
 

katchen

Banned
Which helps to explain why even today upstate New York is so different demographically and politically from New York City and the Hudson Valley that the state is effectively deadlocked politically IOTL with the State Senate voting down much of what passes the state House.
 
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