Realistic effects of a Confederate victory in late 1862 on the rump USA?

Let's say that Special Order 191 never falls out of that Confederate scout's pocket, and the Confederates win at Antietam, and occupy Baltimore, threatening D.C. Afterward, Britain and France force the USA on the pain of war to recognize Confederate independence, and the USA concedes. What happens next? What are the realistic effects of this on the rump USA?
 
Let's say that Special Order 191 never falls out of that Confederate scout's pocket, and the Confederates win at Antietam, and occupy Baltimore, threatening D.C. Afterward, Britain and France force the USA on the pain of war to recognize Confederate independence, and the USA concedes. What happens next? What are the realistic effects of this on the rump USA?
Well, some reorganization and filling loopholes, if anything the republicans are fucked by 1864, If anything the Union will do everything in their power to make CSA life as hard as possible but people would mostly ignore their slaveholders' southern cousins..besides the few losses their lives on the war.... i can't see round two, but I can see the union popping champagne if the CSA goes into flames on their own
 
Unlike what people think, i don't think so.
i'd call it at 50/50 personally--i could easily see a given scenario having them as "worst enemies" or "rival brothers who eventually patch it up". i'm not personally inclined to give the Confederacy the benefit of the doubt, but i'd say that it could realistically go either way.
 
i'd call it at 50/50 personally--i could easily see a given scenario having them as "worst enemies" or "rival brothers who eventually patch it up". i'm not personally inclined to give the Confederacy the benefit of the doubt, but i'd say that it could realistically go either way.
Yeah but something told me the Union might switch their warfront from direct war to diplomacy, just to make sure their souther cousins have a rough live, especially if that peculiar institution is still alive but I could see some people just falling into indifference and focusing in colonizing the west and midwest instead
 
Yeah but something told me the Union might switch their warfront from direct war to diplomacy, just to make sure their souther cousins have a rough live, especially if that peculiar institution is still alive but I could see some people just falling into indifference and focusing in colonizing the west and midwest instead
that, in turn, is probably the most realistic direction that it would go in; i guess the 50/50 part would be how it goes afterwards, if that just makes them hate each other more of if it's eventually relaxed and they get on better terms.
 
Round two feels like it would depend on a lot of developments, but I expect this definitely poisons relations with Great Britain and France - and encourages a different US foreign policy in general.

OTL the US could basically ignore things in Europe in the second half of the 19th century, but how many (US) Americans are going to feel Europe isn't that relevant to American affairs when European countries are grossly interfering in domestic issues?
 
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The Americans and Russians are going to go from warm and fuzzy feelings to Best Friends Forever. A mutual rival/enemy in Great Britain, no conflicts in spheres of interest, and reasonably strong existing diplomatic relations is a wonderful recipe for long term alliance, something the United States needs now that Europe has begun openly meddling in her internal affairs.

This also has a decent chance of moving the Russians further toward liberalization, especially if it butterflies the assassination attempt on Alexander II, which would help Russia immensely.
 
Afterward, Britain and France force the USA on the pain of war to recognize Confederate independence,
Pretty unlikely. Why would they bother with going to war to get the CSA recognised? If the CSA is strong enough to stand on its own, there’s no need to go to war, and if it isn’t, it’s going to take a lot of effort to prop it up - effort they could better spend in other things.

Although unlike everybody else, I don’t think the US will declare eternal enmity with Britain and France, or eternal friendship with Russia. Nations don’t work like that - otherwise México would still be at war with the US for stealing Texas and California.
 
I'm not sure Mexico not being at war with the US is the same as Mexico seeing the US positively, though.

I think a scenario of "Britain and France recognize the Confederacy as an independent nation." would probably mean relatively little in the long term, but Britain and France threatening war on the US unless it lets the CSA go not changing US attitudes seems strange to me.

Russia as a US ally? I think that would require something more to really work. Same with US-Germany like Turtledove.

But being willing to fight instead of negotiate, or less supportive/sympathetic in later conflicts? We see some Americans in WWII in OTL be deeply Anglophobic, and that without any recent events making it seem like Britain is actively an unfriend of the US.
 
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I'm not sure Mexico not being at war with the US is the same as Mexico seeing the US positively, though.
I’m not saying that the US will see Britain and France positively. Just that it won’t get in the way of cooperation on matters of mutual interest. Countries that don’t like each other work together all the time in real life - the US isn’t some exception to the rule.
 
Here's a good way to think about it. You know how it's been seventy-two years and the official policy of the Chinese government is "screw you Taiwan, we're going to reunify the motherland as soon as we can and we'd do a lot more if Uncle Sam wasn't watching?" That's one fairly small region that's not even connected by land to the home country.

Now imagine it's the CSA. I think relations would be frosty and might not even happen at all.
 
This also raises a question: What exactly is coming into being as an independent CSA in autumn 1862?

Because the CSA insisting that it has Missouri and Kentucky and western Virginia and probably Maryland doesn't seem like it would be eagerly signed over - and meanwhile, the US holds (for example) New Orleans.

Both sides being happy seems even less likely when the Confederacy-supporting Kentuckians and Missourians are an additional push towards "No one told us foreign policy was supposed to be realistic and grounded!" in the CSA.

It might not be a full blown round two, but it's certainly not going to be stress-free to be a diplomat here..
 
There is nothing stopping Lincoln from prosecuting the war all the way to his last day in office.

The south might get a big win in 1862, but it won't be enough to end the war. Taking DC is pretty much impossible for the south, and even if they occupy Baltimore, it won't be for long.
 
I'm not sure Mexico not being at war with the US is the same as Mexico seeing the US positively, though.

I think a scenario of "Britain and France recognize the Confederacy as an independent nation." would probably mean relatively little in the long term, but Britain and France threatening war on the US unless it lets the CSA go not changing US attitudes seems strange to me.

Russia as a US ally? I think that would require something more to really work. Same with US-Germany like Turtledove.

But being willing to fight instead of negotiate, or less supportive/sympathetic in later conflicts? We see some Americans in WWII in OTL be deeply Anglophobic, and that without any recent events making it seem like Britain is actively an unfriend of the US.
Russia was already US-friendly during the time of the American Civil War, enough so that when they sent part of their fleet into US ports (to hide from the British during a war scare), it was popularly perceived as being a show of support for the Union. They were the closest thing the United States had to a foreign ally (which, to be sure, was not close at all, but other nations were even further).
 
Yeah, I can definitely see the US and Russia seeing each other in warmer terms than the US and Britain (of TTL certainly), but what Russia does in Central Asia is already about as "Go ahead, we don't mind." to the US as it can get - and similarly what the US does in the Great Plains to Russia.

It would be interesting to be sure, but I don't know if it would solidify into a tangible commitment?
 
Let's say that Special Order 191 never falls out of that Confederate scout's pocket, and the Confederates win at Antietam, and occupy Baltimore, threatening D.C. Afterward, Britain and France force the USA on the pain of war to recognize Confederate independence, and the USA concedes. What happens next? What are the realistic effects of this on the rump USA?
If the USA gets involved in WW1 (and I do think there will be a world war at some point although it the sides could be very different) then they'll join whichever side is against Britain. The USA might eventually forgive France, but Britain would be seen as the sworn enemy.
I’m not saying that the US will see Britain and France positively. Just that it won’t get in the way of cooperation on matters of mutual interest. Countries that don’t like each other work together all the time in real life - the US isn’t some exception to the rule.
Countries have also historically started wars against their own best interest out of nationalistic pride. In this case, Britain would have been the enemy of the USA in three wars, the last of which would have been not only humiliating but seen as a threat to national survival. Those relations are not improving in the forseeable future.
 
I think my perspective is - depending on events from here as far as British policy (or French, but Britain and the US had more diplomatic events together OTL, I think) - but it lasting all the way to "absolutely will join WWI against Britain" feels like it would require something different from the other side than the historical Germany - German diplomacy was that inept OTL.

Feeling unsympathetic and unsupportive of Britain is one thing, but unless Britain keeps antagonizing the US, fifty years has a lot of things that are going to happen as far as whether or not the US and Britain have mutual interests or not being worked out, on a spectrum anywhere between more or less OTL eventually to "absolutely not".

Just to write it out as far as having used the term "poison relations".
 
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I think my perspective is - depending on events from here as far as British policy (or French, but Britain and the US had more diplomatic events together OTL, I think) - but it lasting all the way to "absolutely will join WWI against Britain" feels like it would require something different from the other side than the historical Germany - German diplomacy was that inept OTL.

Feeling unsympathetic and unsupportive of Britain is one thing, but unless Britain keeps antagonizing the US, fifty years has a lot of things that are going to happen as far as whether or not the US and Britain have mutual interests or not being worked out, on a spectrum anywhere between more or less OTL eventually to "absolutely not".
I didn't say the USA would join the Central Powers. The WWI alliances might not resemble to Entente vs CP of OTL, but unless Canada becomes independent before WWI, then it will be seen as a threat to the USA and WWI will present an opportunity to eliminate that threat. Even if Germany acted similarly to how they did in OTL (a rather big assumption considering the potential butterflies) that still probably would not prevent the USA from declaring war on Britain. There would probably not be much in the way of American weapons or munitions exported to Britain, so I doubt we'd see many Americans killed by USW nor would German intelligence be likely to attack American factories. The Zimmerman telegram was issued out of concerns that the resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare would bring about American entry into the war, so it would probably never be issued.
 
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