Realistic Chinese maritime PODs

And by "realistic," I mean no 'Zheng He conquers the Aztecs' scenarios, but actually feasible ones.

An interesting if rather unlikely one I had in mind is a group of war junks defecting from Zheng He's fleet and conquering the Swahili Coast.

Alternately, perhaps some defeated lineage (maybe even the Song) successfully flees out to sea to found a maritime empire in the Indian Ocean and/or the South China Sea.
 
None of those are realistic (your mileage may vary, I am a joyless bastard and a major Asian exploration skeptic to boot).

Before we get into the disparity issue -- are the Zheng junks powerful enough to overcome the significant local advantages held by the Swahili and Somali states by dint of being local -- we should first tackle the matter of economic motive.

The Portuguese came a century later -- and had an Indian Ocean to protect, not to mention the religious rhetoric. They did not outright conquer any of these cities -- held them temporarily at best, at great cost and difficulty, with backup.

Why would junks defect from Zheng He? Why conquer the Swahili -- unlike Cortes, it is not like they were hungry for material resources/gold, which China was rich in. And there wasn't the "Jebus must have more souls" motive either.

The same issue exists with SE Asia and India, where local states successfully rebuffed and resisted European efforts well into the 18th and 19th centuries, including tiny sultanates like Ternate and Tidore.

Now, Borneo did have the Lanfang Republic, but that wasn't outright conquest by a fleeing imperial dynasty. In addition, these places aren't Taiwan either...

Maybe you could get a Koxinga deal in the Philippines, although I'd personally be a skeptic as to the viability of such a state.

After that, what makes any of these states maritime? One can be coastal and non-mercantile -- and there is little in the governing structure of a fleeing imperial dynasty that suggests a transition into a more mercantile/maritime mode of government.
 
Before we get into the disparity issue -- are the Zheng junks powerful enough to overcome the significant local advantages held by the Swahili and Somali states by dint of being local -- we should first tackle the matter of economic motive.

The Portuguese came a century later -- and had an Indian Ocean to protect, not to mention the religious rhetoric. They did not outright conquer any of these cities -- held them temporarily at best, at great cost and difficulty, with backup.

Why would junks defect from Zheng He? Why conquer the Swahili -- unlike Cortes, it is not like they were hungry for material resources/gold, which China was rich in. And there wasn't the "Jebus must have more souls" motive either.
The Swahili had very little in terms of a proper military force, so yes, the Chinese could have decimated them if they so wished (which they rather clearly did not). Where you are getting this idea that the Portuguese "held them temporarily at best"? Mombasa was held directly for a century, and I argue the Portuguese could have held it earlier on since they thoroughly routed its Sultan in 1505 and sacked the town before leaving it destroyed. This happened twice more in the next few decades. Similarly, Kilwa was destroyed three times and the factory the Portuguese established there was abandoned only when it was a waste of money (being in an inconvenient way to India); the Portuguese left almost for good only when forced out by other foreigners (Oman) in the 1690s, and would briefly return to Kilwa in the 1720s. The Somali are a different beast, but I never mentioned them. For economic motive, the Swahili are ripe for the taking, and one city destroyed and a good geopolitical strategy would win hegemony over the entire coastline (not unlike how the Sultans of Malindi allied with the Portuguese, and how the destruction of Kilwa intimated Sofala into doing what the Portuguese told them to do). Conversion would help as well, although it's something the Portuguese couldn't manage to do. Not to mention there are no Ottomans simultaneously vying for hegemony in the western Indian Ocean.

After that, what makes any of these states maritime? One can be coastal and non-mercantile -- and there is little in the governing structure of a fleeing imperial dynasty that suggests a transition into a more mercantile/maritime mode of government.
Where could they conquer that would make them to be not dependent on the sea, at least in its initial phases?
 
Also, if you're going for a stretch, it is claimed that the people of Mogadishu that Zheng He encountered were "quarrelsome," which might just possibly suggest that there was perhaps some form of confrontation between the Mogadishites and the Chinese.
 
There was that incident where the Ming fleet under Zhenge He in Ceylon where they had to conquer Kotte by force.Could the Ming decide to rule the land directly themselves instead?
 
The Swahili had very little in terms of a proper military force, so yes, the Chinese could have decimated them if they so wished (which they rather clearly did not).

I was thinking more that China wouldn't get reinforcements the way Portuguese feitorias did -- but that point about not wanting to decimate the Swahili does play into my "why conquer" tangent.

As a materialist, that's where I get hung up -- why mutiny against Zheng He, why conquer the locals -- and why do this without the guaranteed support of the Chinese metropole? The economic incentives don't seem to be there.

I guess there's the tenuous Maqdishu idea, but that seems like a thin thread.

As for Ceylon, they'd run into the same problems that the Ports did against the interior states -- if they could conquer anything, given the differences between a Ceylonese kingdom and the Swahili cities.

Where you are getting this idea that the Portuguese "held them temporarily at best"? Mombasa was held directly for a century, and I argue the Portuguese could have held it earlier on since they thoroughly routed its Sultan in 1505 and sacked the town before leaving it destroyed. This happened twice more in the next few decades. Similarly, Kilwa was destroyed three times and the factory the Portuguese established there was abandoned only when it was a waste of money (being in an inconvenient way to India); the Portuguese left almost for good only when forced out by other foreigners (Oman) in the 1690s, and would briefly return to Kilwa in the 1720s.

There were a number of revolts, outside attacks, and temporary repulsions -- kinda like Europe's initial attempts to occupy Barbary ports outside of Ceuta and Melilla. Particularly the rising of 1631. And the Omani raid/sack of 1661.

As for Kilwa, I had forgotten about that city's destruction.

Where could they conquer that would make them to be not dependent on the sea, at least in its initial phases?

I really can't say. The easiest targets -- Taiwan, Philippines -- are all unconnected by land to the Asian mainland. Going down to Indonesia isn't much better, and would probably be just as hard if Srivijaya, Majapahit or the Chola (distantly) are still in their apogee.

Indochina doesn't offer much either -- Vietnam is too close, and at the time the Khmer were still fairly powerful, along with the Champa.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
many of chinese conquest scenario has problem, mainly how to make such state continued to be "chinese".

any state/port conquered by zheng he, would ended up "non-chinese" even if original king is zheng he admiral.

independent guangdong (southern han) or independent Taiwan (koxinga) might work, but they have two problem. a)continued independence is very difficult, united china would have enough resource to overwhelm them.
b) Vietnam, with 1000 years under chinese develop different culture, maritime guangdong/ taiwan would eventually become non-chinese.

so any expansion by chinese empire would be temporary, sooner or later the empire would concentrate more on steppe problem and stop being maritime, while break-away state would eventually "nativised". for chinese to become maritime, there must be some fundamental change on china itself.
 
many of chinese conquest scenario has problem, mainly how to make such state continued to be "chinese".

any state/port conquered by zheng he, would ended up "non-chinese" even if original king is zheng he admiral.

independent guangdong (southern han) or independent Taiwan (koxinga) might work, but they have two problem. a)continued independence is very difficult, united china would have enough resource to overwhelm them.
b) Vietnam, with 1000 years under chinese develop different culture, maritime guangdong/ taiwan would eventually become non-chinese.

so any expansion by chinese empire would be temporary, sooner or later the empire would concentrate more on steppe problem and stop being maritime, while break-away state would eventually "nativised". for chinese to become maritime, there must be some fundamental change on china itself.

Sorry, what? Are you suggesting that the moment a Chinese state becomes more maritime (Taiwan or Guangdong), it stops being Chinese?

BS. BS. BS.

Kingdom of Min, Yue, and Taiwan. All Han people.

In fact, Taiwan was very Sinicized with Koxinga. I don't buy what you're saying.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
Kingdom of Min, Yue, and Taiwan. All Han people.

In fact, Taiwan was very Sinicized with Koxinga. I don't buy what you're saying.

all Han people because they conquered and reintegrated to China.

maritime states who continued to have 200-300 years independence would develop their culture differently. Difference in contact with foreigner, religion spreading, and economic concentration would likely make them very 'different'. They will noticeably have similarity with China, but different enough that chinese people in 'mainland' and outsider would consider them different.

scholar in mainland would probably consider them like Korea and Vietnam, peripherial states that civilized and paying tribute to Emperor, but still not 'chinese' enough.

The end result that their maritime culture would have minimal impact, chinese wouldn't help if they embroiled in war SE Asia, foreign product imported by ship would only considered luxury, and any news of technological change they brought would not be considered important, if Europe did managed industrial revolution, then chinese would not worry or care when maritime 'han' states get conquered and become colony.
 
Koxinga was not the real threat to the Spanish at that time in the Philippines but the Revolutionaries led by Malong, Maniago and Almazan, since they have already convinced a large portion of the populace to revolt..this coincided with the Chinese revolting as well..
 
Sorry, what? Are you suggesting that the moment a Chinese state becomes more maritime (Taiwan or Guangdong), it stops being Chinese?

BS. BS. BS.

Kingdom of Min, Yue, and Taiwan. All Han people.

In fact, Taiwan was very Sinicized with Koxinga. I don't buy what you're saying.
Zheng Chenggong only had direct control over parts of Taiwan.Much of the island was either controlled by the indigenous population or sparsely populated.
 
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