Reading the Room - an Alternate War of 1812 and beyond

[piratedude]

the big issue here that I haven't seen a lot of clues on how ttl is going to deal with is that the treaties ending the wars against Napoleon and the general agreements in 1815 made an decent effort to restore colonial possessions to the way that they were prior to the French Revolution. Now nobody seriously attempted to restore Louisiana to the French, but a Military Conquest like Florida or Cuba, you might get a *lot* of push to restore to the Spanish Crown. (And then perhaps pay for them). Now most of the European powers (for example Austria) would not be in a situation to enforce the US giving them back, so it largely would be Britain that would be responsible for that. It would be interesting if the British used the US as sort of a Rapid dog in those discussions. (You can sell them to the UK, or we won't be responsible for what happens when the Americans decide that they want them)

a lot of American politicians considered getting the Floridas just compensation for the damages caused by Spanish ships in the Quasi War, in addition to believing that part of West Florida was included in the Louisiana Purchase (the Florida Parishes of modern Louisiana), so I could see the US arguing it only has to pay for Cuba. Plus, Spain had mostly written off the Floridas by that point so its no real loss to them.

Cuba though is the Jewel of the West Indies, only once matched by Hispaniola which, uh, isn't looking so hot after the wars with Haiti and French occupation in the east of the island, so yeah, definitely gonna butt heads over that. Depending on how the US went about getting Cuba, like if they coopt an independence movement, they could reasonably argue that they have the support of the inhabitants.

 

[naraht]

a lot of American politicians considered getting the Floridas just compensation for the damages caused by Spanish ships in the Quasi War, in addition to believing that part of West Florida was included in the Louisiana Purchase (the Florida Parishes of modern Louisiana), so I could see the US arguing it only has to pay for Cuba. Plus, Spain had mostly written off the Floridas by that point so its no real loss to them.

Cuba though is the Jewel of the West Indies, only once matched by Hispaniola which, uh, isn't looking so hot after the wars with Haiti and French occupation in the east of the island, so yeah, definitely gonna butt heads over that. Depending on how the US went about getting Cuba, like if they coopt an independence movement, they could reasonably argue that they have the support of the inhabitants.

As a note here especially with the comment about Catalonia and a "How bad can the Iberian Peninsula get". Is there any way for Spain to fall into pieces so badly that not even all of the great powers of Europe can put it back together again? (Well, the Russians won't care...)

 

[Seawolf]

Frankly, if the British find out about the rebellion in Spain even a few months later than OTL (which is going to happen) I can see the areas of Spain that have had Independence movements before asking France to guarantee their independence...if they halt the occupation.

 

[Seawolf]

June 12, 1808 - Spain​

He hadn’t had as much time to gather his mercenaries as he would have liked but if he had his way then the French would have never occupied Spain. Thus Juan Baget watched as the French forces marched past the position he had chosen for an ambush, and smirked. This would be perfect, he gave the signal for the attack to begin by firing his rifle.

Almost immediately six guns roared, spraying grapeshot into the French. The battle that followed lasted three hours but it saw the French retreat - it was a major Spanish victory.

 

[piratedude]

June 8, 1808 - Havana, Cuba​

At the Havana Naval Arsenal timbers slowly rose into the sky as work progressed on a 114-gunner and an 86-gunner ship of the line. The workers, a mixture of whites and blacks, worked together to make these titans of the sea come together, but it would be years before they were ready. They had no idea about the changes that would be coming to Cuba.

---

AN: Havana Naval Arsenal was arguably one of the best shipyards in the world, they built six of the eight Santa Anna class ships of the line usually out of Mogahony, which resulted in beautiful-looking ships and they also built them very well indeed.

So to clarify, these are the never completed Real Familia (114 guns) and Emprendedor (84 guns)?

 

[Seawolf]

So to clarify, these are the never completed Real Familia (114 guns) and Emprendedor (84 guns)?

Yep, I couldn't figure out when these vessels had work halt on them actually.

 

[piratedude]

Makes sense, then Tridente is probably being laid down in Ferrol, that's the main Spanish ship building arsenal that kept popping up to me.

 

[Seawolf]

Makes sense, then Tridente is probably being laid down in Ferrol, that's the main Spanish ship building arsenal that kept popping up to me.

Yep, that's what I am thinking as well.

 

[piratedude]

still haven't had much luck in tracking down the Spanish ships of the lines (SOL) , but what I've put together is that the vast majority of them were stuck in Spanish and French harbors thanks to the British. Some of those ships, like Mexicano, are laid up in poor repair because the blockade means they cant get the materials to repair her.

The only one that I am fairly confident is not bottled up in the old world is San Carlos (1765), a 112-gun First rate operating on the Manila route out of San Blas, Mexico

 

[Seawolf]

he only one that I am fairly confident is not bottled up in the old world is San Carlos (1765), a 112-gun First rate operating on the Manila route out of San Blas, Mexico

So basically not a threat to the Carribean Theater, what about frigates and unrated warships, what did the Spanish and French have in the region?

 

[piratedude]

So basically not a threat to the Carribean Theater, what about frigates and unrated warships, what did the Spanish and French have in the region?

afaict, just whatever sloops, schooners, and brigs willing to take letters of marque from either power. which is how the Spanish colonies have run their Guarda Costa for several decades now, but the lack of a true naval presence from the mother country was keenly felt by the colonies at this time.
They're probably also feeling rather lower on cash than they would otl because they cant profit from the American embargo acts, so the only illicit trade going through them to the Americans would be the slave trade

 

[Seawolf]

afaict, just whatever sloops, schooners, and brigs willing to take letters of marque from either power. which is how the Spanish colonies have run their Guarda Costa for several decades now, but the lack of a true naval presence from the mother country was keenly felt by the colonies at this time.

So basically, the USN could sweep through the region and nab a lot of Privateers before they know what's going on?

 

[piratedude]

pretty much. they're basically joining in most of the way through Britain's Caribbean campaign as far as the French are concerned, and the Spanish only have recourse to their admittedly well fortified bases like Havana, Veracruz, and Cartagena.

 

[Seawolf]

June 12, 1808 - United States​

USS President pulled into Washington Naval Yard with her prize along with Minion. The United States Navy and the Army had been expecting the arrival of the three ships. Italienne was taken in for inspection by the United States Navy for the purposes of finding out prize money. It was decided that she would have repairs finished and be commissioned into the United States Navy, where upon she would be commissioned as USS Trenton and that she would have the armament of a 2nd Class Frigate with 18-pounder long guns on her gun deck with 32-pounder carronades on her upper deck.

As for the Army, the entirety of Sirene’s armament was bought from the merchantman at a rate that would be considered very profitable indeed. The purchase of forty additional guns was a nice thing to have for the United States Army. It would also see the United States seriously consider making 8-pounders their light gun.

 

[Stephanus Meteu]

It would also see the United States seriously consider making 8-pounders their light gun.

Do keep in mind that French pounds and British / USA pounds are not equal units of measure, and therefore a British 8 pounder and a French 8 pounder are in fact different calibers. Also, naval guns and field guns are not really interchangeable weapons, there are significant differences, but naval guns would do as fortress guns.

 

[Seawolf]

Also, naval guns and field guns are not really interchangeable weapons, there are significant differences, but naval guns would do as fortress guns.

Do note, that the US Army is in charge of Seacoast Defense actually at this point in time.

Also, IIRC, the primary difference between a Field Gun and a Naval Gun in this era was primarily the carriage.

 

[Stephanus Meteu]

Also, IIRC, the primary difference between a Field Gun and a Naval Gun in this era was primarily the carriage.

Naval guns (and fortress guns, and siege guns) tended to be substantially heavier than field guns, even of the same caliber (and field guns tended to be of bronze, while iron was more likely in other applications, although not absolute in either case). The French naval 8 pounder weighs in the area of twice what their contemporary 8 pounder field gun weighs. The naval gun is thus an absolutely terrible basis for a light field gun. Plus, the French 8 pounder field guns were already known to the US since the French had brought them over during the Revolution… but ironically Napoleon was trying to get rid of his own 4 and 8 pounders and replace them with 6s and 12s as part of the year XI system reforms of the artillery, although he ended up partially reversing on that point as it didn’t work out as planned.

 

[Seawolf]

Naval guns (and fortress guns, and siege guns) tended to be substantially heavier than field guns, even of the same caliber (and field guns tended to be of bronze, while iron was more likely in other applications, although not absolute in either case).

Huh, I actually didn't know that Naval Guns were heavier than Field Guns.

Regardless, these guns from Sirene are most likely going to end up going to a Fort somewhere in the United States for Coastal Defense work.

 

[Stephanus Meteu]

This is just a wild guess, but I suspect that an 8 livre French gun could be bored out to a 9 pounder, as 8 French livre are about the equivalent of 8.6 British pounds.

The French artillery in this period was a mess of far too many calibers, and those of the army and navy don’t always match (the army used a 16 livre weapon, while the closest naval gun was 18 livre).

An interesting issue for naval guns, the French preferred a 36 livre as their lower gun deck armament for their big ships… which is 38.8 pounds… on paper that would seem an advantage of the British / American 32 pounder… but it turns out in practice that 32 pounder is in something of a sweet spot for ease and speed of loading and guns larger than this tend to have a drop in rate of fire. Later on the French navy would try to standardize on 30 livre (32.3 pounds) as their primary caliber for naval guns, creating a variety of long, medium, and short guns in the caliber that could be used to replace almost all other calibers.

 

[Seawolf]

This is just a wild guess, but I suspect that an 8 livre French gun could be bored out to a 9 pounder, as 8 French livre are about the equivalent of 8.6 British pounds.

That's what I am thinking actually.

but it turns out in practice that 32 pounder is in something of a sweet spot for ease and speed of loading and guns larger than this tend to have a drop in rate of fire.

I even touched on this with the United States putting 42-pounder long guns on USS America as they don't know that yet.