Reading the Room - an Alternate War of 1812 and beyond

[Seawolf]

With antinavalist sentiment growing seemingly increasingly unpopular, I’d think congress would eventually think to themselves “just give them what they want” in regards to grades of admirals.

Particularly with the much larger building program occurring here which will make it a necessity to the point when its brought up in 1814/1815 that it gets actively implemented.

I reckon that once the ranks of Admiral are implemented, that's sort of the point of no return for the United States with easily downscaling the Navy again.

 

[edgeworthy]

If the USN intends to fight any sort of Fleet Action it is going to need some sort of a Flag-Rank system.

If only to make it clear who is responding to the initial signal of "Enemy in Sight". Followed by "Form a Line-of-Battle astern of the Flagship", for which you need a Flagship. And then to signal "Close Action"

(Which BTW make great chapter titles)

 

[Seawolf]

If the USN intends to fight any sort of Fleet Action it is going to need some sort of a Flag-Rank system.

This I agree with and frankly, the United States Navy will likely want to do things in a manner that just doesn't outright copy the British system. They will want to incorporate some aspects of their own as well.

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

How well equipped would America’s naval forces be to fight the American Civil War and the Spanish-American War, if these trends continue?

 

[Seawolf]

How well equipped would America’s naval forces be to fight the American Civil War and the Spanish-American War, if these trends continue?

They would effortlessly have enough ships to fight the OTL American Civil War.

If the OTL Spanish-American War happens? The United States crushes the Spanish like insect, which sees the United States likely get most if not all of Spain's remaining territories outside of the Iberian Peninsula.

That is if the general trend of shipbuilding continues.

Right now, we're in the Era of Wooden Ships and Iron Men and in about 50-years the era of the Ironclad will begin.

 

[chekoventerprise]

If the USN intends to fight any sort of Fleet Action it is going to need some sort of a Flag-Rank system.

If only to make it clear who is responding to the initial signal of "Enemy in Sight". Followed by "Form a Line-of-Battle astern of the Flagship", for which you need a Flagship. And then to signal "Close Action"

(Which BTW make great chapter titles)

The USN did adopt one OTL, just in 1817, where they developed a system of pennants for the officer in command, first subordinate, and second subordinate of a squadron. It’s mentioned in here https://www.napoleon-series.org/military-info/Warof1812/2012/Issue17/Commodores.pdf

 

[piratedude]

I was able to dig up some more precise information on the strength of the Spanish in east Florida.

The Third Infantry Battalion of Cuba, stationed in St Augustine, consisted of 4 companies of Grenadiers (about 40 men each, plus officers) and one company of artillery for the Castillo and associated redoubts.

There were four companies of militia in St Augustine; one for the Spanish residents, one for the Mahones(Minorcans), one for miscellaneous White residents, and one for Free Blacks. Amounting to about 240 militiamen.

North of the city were another 180 men mustered in 2 companies of militia, mostly in Fernandina. When tensions were growing and Georgian raiders seemed likely in 1811-12, the governor raised a supplemental squad of 26 dragoons on the northside of the St Johns River.

Fort San Nicholas, South side of the St. Johns river in Jacksonville, guarding the ferry crossing. I'm finding almost nothing about this fort, so I think a safe bet for such a strategic point is also 100 men

Fort San Nicolas
(1740 - 1763, 1784 - 1820's), South Jacksonville
A Spanish blockhouse built in anticipation of a British attack. Located at the foot of present-day Liberty Street, about a mile east from the old ferry landing ("Cowford"). Probably not used at all by the British. Rebuilt by the Spanish in 1784, with a 100-foot square moat. The barracks and Officers' quarters were located outside the moat. Attacked by the Georgia state militia in 1796, but later rebuilt. With a garrison of only three men, it was captured and destroyed by American troops in March 1812 supporting the "Patriots' War". Rebuilt again later (after 1813) by the Spanish.

So, uh, scratch any real resistance from San Nicholas. There was also an old abandoned battery, San Vicente de Ferrer, somewhere on the bluff between Newcastle Creek and the Charter Point neighborhood, that the Patriot rebels reoccupied.

I also forgot that there was a Fort Picolata at a ferry crossing on the middle St Johns River, 21 miles west of San Augustine. The Fort controlled access up the river and communications with the Seminoles further west. It also seems to have been as understaffed as San Nicholas, and likewise occupied by Patriot forces.

So in all, the Spanish really put all their hope in holding Augustine with the promise of aid from the local Indians and eventual reinforcements from Cuba.

 

[Seawolf]

So in all, the Spanish really put all their hope in holding Augustine with the promise of aid from the local Indians and eventual reinforcements from Cuba.

So basically, East Florida should fold like a stack of cards with Andrew Jackson kicks in the door.

Actually, thinking on it, why do I see Old Hickory not having a pleasant reaction when he finds out that Georgians have been doing in East Florida?

 

[piratedude]

Tbf, the animosity between Georgia and Florida stretches back to Georgias foundation, and flaired up pretty regularly

 

[Seawolf]

Tbf, the animosity between Georgia and Florida stretches back to Georgias foundation, and flaired up pretty regularly

Fair enough, so that's an out then.

 

[unprincipled peter]

I was able to dig up some more precise information on the strength of the Spanish in east Florida.

The Third Infantry Battalion of Cuba, stationed in St Augustine, consisted of 4 companies of Grenadiers (about 40 men each, plus officers) and one company of artillery for the Castillo and associated redoubts.

There were four companies of militia in St Augustine; one for the Spanish residents, one for the Mahones(Minorcans), one for miscellaneous White residents, and one for Free Blacks. Amounting to about 240 militiamen.

North of the city were another 180 men mustered in 2 companies of militia, mostly in Fernandina. When tensions were growing and Georgian raiders seemed likely in 1811-12, the governor raised a supplemental squad of 26 dragoons on the northside of the St Johns River.



So, uh, scratch any real resistance from San Nicholas. There was also an old abandoned battery, San Vicente de Ferrer, somewhere on the bluff between Newcastle Creek and the Charter Point neighborhood, that the Patriot rebels reoccupied.

I also forgot that there was a Fort Picolata at a ferry crossing on the middle St Johns River, 21 miles west of San Augustine. The Fort controlled access up the river and communications with the Seminoles further west. It also seems to have been as understaffed as San Nicholas, and likewise occupied by Patriot forces.

So in all, the Spanish really put all their hope in holding Augustine with the promise of aid from the Indians and eventual reinforcements from Cuba.

I don't think there was ever any doubt that USA could take Florida quite easily. The real defense was that going to war is a very serious decision. OTL, this defense worked until Spain decided not to quibble over letting USA have it. Losing Florida was really no big deal in either 1763 or 1819. Stung the pride, but no real loss. East Florida was also no real gain, so alone it isn't worth going to war over. West Florida was useful for access from the Eastern seaboard to New Orleans. It held no real value for Spain, so USA was able to annex it without issue.
War isn't something to take lightly, hence it works as a defense. Once war is a reality, the Floridas don't stand a chance.

 

[Seawolf]

War isn't something to take lightly, hence it works as a defense.

This is actually why I have Congress going in circles over the Minion Incident - some want war for the outrage, others are thinking that would be a little too hasty.

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

In this timeline, could America’s navies actually hypothetically invade Cuba and keep Cuba from Spain?

 

[Seawolf]

In this timeline, could America’s navies actually hypothetically invade Cuba and keep Cuba from Spain?

Depends on what Spain actually has in Cuba for naval assets.

If its only a few frigates or Brigs then yes, the USN could pull a blockade and allow a landing. Even if there's only one or two ships of the line, depending on rate (say if they're 3rd Rates) then the USN could still tackle that.

Anything heavier, then it starts becoming problematic.

 

[chekoventerprise]

Interestingly near the war of 1812 or just after it ended in Feb 1815, the navy secretary did recommend the creation of the grade of rear admiral, so it wouldn’t be that out there. He also recommended the authorization of brevet rank by congress (possibly for navy but I think just marines, I’m not able to check my books at the moment).

For those interested, I’ve managed to track down an alternate source to the one I initially knew the information from.

The Grade of Admiral in the U. S. Navy

THE word admir

www.usni.org

It is now necessary to establish the grade of rear admiral … leaving the promotions to vice admiral and admiral to future services, and an enlarged establishment.

Assuming the date attributed (11/15/1814) in the article is correct, this would have been from William Jones.

 

[piratedude]

Depends on what Spain actually has in Cuba for naval assets.

If its only a few frigates or Brigs then yes, the USN could pull a blockade and allow a landing. Even if there's only one or two ships of the line, depending on rate (say if they're 3rd Rates) then the USN could still tackle that.

Anything heavier, then it starts becoming problematic.

On the bright side, the French presence in the Caribbean is just about gone, the only thing American ships have to worry about are pirates that Captain General Ernouf keeps handing out Letters of Marque to (in fact there were several privateer brigs named after him during his posting there)

Still no luck tracking down any resources on the Spanish navy's presence.

 

[Belisarius II]

I can see Andrew Jackson likely trying to figure out a way to reward the Native Americans that help them - one idea that sounds awesome but is extremely unlikely is Florida being made a protectorate with the Native Americans in charge and say by 1830, they can hold a Constitutional Convention and get inducted into the United States. But given the timeframe that seems....unlikely.

Sorry but that would never happen in a million years. Florida was an area for Southern expansion. It's ports and Islands were of strategic importance to the USN. A Florida run by Native Americans would still be a magnet for runaway slaves which would continue to enrage slave holding Southerners like Anderew Jackson. Jackson had no respect for the interests of the Native Americans. He was interested in land speculators and the Plantation Class. Southern presidents like Jefferson and Madison had no interest in an Indian run Florida which would be of no advantage to the United States and a threat to national security.

 

[Belisarius II]

They would effortlessly have enough ships to fight the OTL American Civil War.

If the OTL Spanish-American War happens? The United States crushes the Spanish like insect, which sees the United States likely get most if not all of Spain's remaining territories outside of the Iberian Peninsula.

That is if the general trend of shipbuilding continues.

Right now, we're in the Era of Wooden Ships and Iron Men and in about 50-years the era of the Ironclad will begin.

Once the Napoleonic Wars end most of this fleet is going to be laid up in places like Norfolk Va and get burned in 1961 as OTL. After the ACW there was no need for a big fleet. The pull of national interest was industrialization and western expansion, and you don't need a big navy for that. The push for a Steel Navy came up in an age of imperialism and the rise of American strategic interests in the Pacific and Asia. By the time of the Steel Navy the USA had the largest economy in the world, in the age of sail a first-rate navy was beyond America's means.

 

[TheCataphract]

Once the Napoleonic Wars end most of this fleet is going to be laid up in places like Norfolk Va and get burned in 1961 as OTL. After the ACW there was no need for a big fleet. The pull of national interest was industrialization and western expansion, and you don't need a big navy for that. The push for a Steel Navy came up in an age of imperialism and the rise of American strategic interests in the Pacific and Asia. By the time of the Steel Navy the USA had the largest economy in the world, in the age of sail a first-rate navy was beyond America's means.

A world class navy is beyond their means, but should they actually take Cuba, there is a very clear need at that point for a navy to defend the territory that would, barring political concerns, become a state in very short order.

So there likely wouldn't be funds for a powerful expeditionary fleet, but a competent one capable of defending local interests would likely remain.

Of course this is putting the cart before the horse, to a degree. They haven't taken Florida yet, let alone Cuba.

 

[naraht]

the big issue here that I haven't seen a lot of clues on how ttl is going to deal with is that the treaties ending the wars against Napoleon and the general agreements in 1815 made an decent effort to restore colonial posessions to the way that they were prior to the French Revolution. Now nobody seriously attempted to restore Louisiana to the French, but a Military Conquest like Florida or Cuba, you might get a *lot* of push to restore to the Spanish Crown. (And then perhaps pay for them). Now most of the European powers (for example Austria) would not be in a situation to enforce the US giving them back, so it largely would be Britain that would be responsible for that. It would be interesting if the British used the US as sort of a Rapid dog in those discussions. (You can sell them to the UK, or we won't be responsible for what happens when the Americans decide that they want them)