Re-taking of Nazi occupied Britain?

yulzari1

Carl Schwamberger said:
Invading Britain could be a diversion, or even a deception operation. Persuade Hitler to create a strong defense there at the expense of the French coast. A trans Atlantic invasion is a whole other level of difficulty, but if theres a relatively weak defense of Brittany...
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Ireland might suffice. If the Irish Republic has been left in place then effective German opposition requires a limited action from Ulster but crossing Irish Sea will delay further response from Britain so a an invasion with a fast move inland could seize a large part of Ireland before a major defence could be mounted. Or, more economically, a major misinformation program backed by a trial landing/major raid. The Irish origin US population would be an easy feedback route.

The hard part of a western France invasion is the cross ocean logistic train. No UK stockpiling just a days sail away. The Free French need to be kept completely out of the loop given their OTL security habits. If Vichy still is in existence then they are either a security risk or a local armed disciplined asset in place depending upon your point of view. I can see no transport space being free to rearm them with US assets as IOTL. Also no UK based air assets to dominate the skies so German troops movement to, and on the battlefield will be far easier for them. The merchant vessel requirements will almost certainly suspend major amphibious activity in the Pacific. I presume that the war in the Soviet Union continues. The limiting factor is the shipping. Local air and naval superiority are possible around the landings so getting ashore, especially if Vichy assist, is a near certainly but the progress of the advance is a function of the regular shipping capacity. Given the fuel and land transport issues of Overlord IOTL and the fact that this timeline shipping takes many days, even weeks, to make a return journey, supplying a direct continental landing is only an option if the merchant etc. fleet is much larger than that employed in Overlord. On the other hand it is not being used to keep the UK going which will free some significant capacity. Even so, as I understand it, some part of Overlord stockpiling was to build up UK resources such that shipping could be temporarily diverted to Overlord. I am also aware that all this shipping requires somewhere to unload rapidly at all stages of tides and in most weathers.
 

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
yulzari1 said:
The traditional answer is to land on the Isle of Thanet………..

More seriously, a landing on the west coast of France and drive to take Germany, leaving Britain alone as far as possible.
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Thought Ravenspur in the 15th Century was a new tradition.
 
Clandango

Clandango

mattep74 said:
If uk falls then the ss have to deal with the scottish people.
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What, to exterminate them? I don’t believe the Nazis actually had trouble with Celts. Most of the areas that had strong Celtic presences were in the British Isles, with the large areas that had them long, Logan ago in Europe instead becoming French, Spanish, German, Italian, Swiss, etc over the past two and a half thousand years. Anyways, if necessary the Scottish are convenient for trying to hamper the English with divide and conquer. We need to consider if this is going to be like a Vichy France with the locals paying large about of reparations to pay for the few German soldiers there or the Danish situation with the Germans just sitting around and letting the Danish continue as they were so long as they continued to feed millions of Germans and provide all their industries for the German War Machine. If the Germans control all of Great Britain than a D-Day styled thing seems virtually impossible. There is just to much ground to cover, and the Germans are going to be close enough to threaten the Irish if they look like they will let the Americans in. More likely the Nazis hand over Northern Ireland too them so long as the Brits are steeped out, power wise. Heck, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Germans offered to take as many English or Scottish people who don’t want to stay in Ulster, though they would be more likely to want to go to Canada or the US rather than occupied Great Britain. Or to Eastern Europe, since the Germans still thought the English and others were of good stock.
 

vizzer

You go for the Channel Islands solution where more & more resources are poured into defending the British Isles while the attacker bypasses them leaving them to "wither on the vine'.
 
Clandango

Clandango

vizzer said:
You go for the Channel Islands solution where more & more resources are poured into defending the British Isles while the attacker bypasses them leaving them to "wither on the vine'.
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It is a lot harder to invade France from North America rather than England.
 
AltoRegnant

AltoRegnant

I'm not sure they could take Scotland- honestly, even wales might be difficult. logistics in taking England will be bad enough even with a successful landing, but as you get north of the Thames and into the more mountainous regions, things are bound to get worse and worse, which will pair quite nicely with the cross-channel problem. so i could see scotland still holding out and being paired with northern Ireland
 

kham_coc

Banned
AltoRegnant said:
I'm not sure they could take Scotland- honestly, even wales might be difficult. logistics in taking England will be bad enough even with a successful landing, but as you get north of the Thames and into the more mountainous regions, things are bound to get worse and worse, which will pair quite nicely with the cross-channel problem. so i could see scotland still holding out and being paired with northern Ireland
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If the US decides to intervene to stop any invasion yeah sure - but if the Dover Kent area falls and Germany can supply that toehold, its just over. Germany would enjoy so much advantages in armour, manpower, airpower, it wouldn't be funny.
 
Gillan1220

Gillan1220

I don't think the Germans had the resources to occupy all of the island of Great Britain. Maybe the southern England all the way up to London falls, but Scotland would prove to be a defensive perimeter. It would end up like the Vichy France situation. The U.S. could fortify Scotland by deploying troops and forces there.

Also, what becomes of the Royal Navy and other Commonwealth forces? Does the Royal Family relocate to Canada? Would elements of the RN and RAF take part in the liberation of Britain?

Someone mentioned about India declaring independence so that would mean other colonies in Asia, the Middle East, and Africa would follow suit?
 

muskeg13

HunterX said:
You need air supremacy first for that to work. You can't accomplish it across the Atlantic.
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Uhmm...that's what the B-36 was designed to do. In this scenario, B-35 and/or B-36 development would take a higher priority than the development of the B-29. Coming up with a very long range delivery system would become part of the Manhattan Project, and given proper resources and priority it would be done. Flying above 40,000 ft, possibly above 50,000', the B-36s would be invulnerable, particularly if it's European debut happens to be dropping "Little Boy" on Berlin. Gander to Berlin and back, easy peasy. The Third Reich ends in a flash.
 

Darrenb209

kham_coc said:
If the US decides to intervene to stop any invasion yeah sure - but if the Dover Kent area falls and Germany can supply that toehold, its just over. Germany would enjoy so much advantages in armour, manpower, airpower, it wouldn't be funny.
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Only if Britain immediately surrenders by the same space magic that brings the forces over.

If they don't, then the Germans have to fight there way up through England all the while knowing that they're at the bottom of the resource queue until Russia is defeated. By Wales, they're going to be at the end of a very shaky logistics line fighting in hostile terrain that favours the defenders.

By Scotland, if Russia is still holding at that point, they're going to have been bled white and while Central Scotland is where most of the population is and doesn't feature very good defensive terrain, the Highlands favour the defenders significantly and the Firth of Forth makes for a good barrier to hold a flank. And if they start taking ground in the Highlands, they're going to have to deal with the fact that there's a vast, vast number of unmarked roads and paths that don't exist on any official map across the place from the many attempts to subjugate rebellions starting there which would favour a resistance significantly.
 
Albidoom

Albidoom

kham_coc said:
If the US decides to intervene to stop any invasion yeah sure - but if the Dover Kent area falls and Germany can supply that toehold, its just over. Germany would enjoy so much advantages in armour, manpower, airpower, it wouldn't be funny.
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Theoretically yes , but the ability to supply the German invasion force is a really important point in all of this.
 

alspug

As others have said I myself think that in the event of the Germans managing to take the British Isles then Ireland is a no go due to German land based aircraft. The taking of North Africa first would be essential and before that the Azores would be a good staging point, failing that you need to look at Strategic bombing. If I had to choose a location to invade Great Britain the list of questions that need answered first are as below.

1: Why GB first.
The answer for this is important as GB is a big enough land mass to require dozens of divisions just for population policing. BTW this is a bad way of saying stopping armed rebellion.
2: Does Germany control all of Ireland or just the north
This controls how easy it is to land in GB. if Germany does not control all of Ireland I would land half a million men through Irish ports in 2 or 3 days then march North while making airfields to stop needing all the carriers.
3: Did Germany get the Royal Navy or is GB still in the fight just out of the Empire
This determins the number of ships needed to resolve the naval battle. BTW U-boats can do well as mobile mines so to speak but do poorly against a D-Day on steroids invasion fleet. They do not have enough torpedo's and will be unable to poke a periscope up without being attacked.
4: Where is the Soviet Union and Japan.
If Japan is neutralised and the Soviet Union dissolved I would imagine the possibility of the Americans landing in various other localities in order to pressure Germany. For example if the SU is still fighting but at the Ural Mountains then having a dozen US Armies supplied through Siberia is a possibility.
5: Does Germany have the Bomb.
If they don't then Berlin gets a double sunrise one day
6: Is Italy or the Italian Navy still functional.
This makes the possibility of a Med landing possible. In OTL the South of France before Italy mainland could have been a possibility. With Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica taken then South France is doable.
 
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