RE Lee is as obscure as Samuel Cooper?

TFSmith121

Banned
Thanks Mr. Crafurd for this one - in the winter of 1861, RE "Granny" Lee had been in command in Western Virginia when the rebels were defeated there (by troops under the command of GB McClellan and WS Rosecrans, no less); he was kicked upstairs to the southeastern coast command (essentially, facing TW Sherman at Port Royal.)

In 1862, when the Peninsula Campaign got underway, he was back in Virginia, and was Davis' pick to relieve GW Smith after JE Johnston was wounded at Seven Pines.

But what if Johnston only gets his hair mussed by that shell, and remains in command?

My guess is Johnston would actually prove far more Fabian than Lee during the Peninsula Campiagn, which would probably benefit the CSA in terms of sticking to a defensive strategy. Lee, meanwhile, might actually have been a positive force while suffering in silence as Davis' alleged chief of staff.

Or he drops dead from yellow fever in South Carolina in 1861.

Anyway, could make for a very different Eastern Theater.

Best,
 
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Its not possible.

Samuel Cooper is obscure because he was Adjutant General, a high ranking staff officer specifically prohibited by Confederate Army regulations from taking the field, and effectively employed by Davis as a glorified clerk.

Robert E. Lee was a General of the Line, and even though he would be employed in staff work he was not a staff officer and would always be placed in the field in some capacity as the war progressed.

Thus, even if Joe Johnston was not wounded at Seven Pines/Fair Oaks and proved himself an effective commander in combatting the Federal efforts in Virginia, Lee will still end up in the field - most likely taking charge after Beauregard went AWOL from the Army of Mississippi if command doesn't pass to Bragg or ending up as Commander of the Department of the West and dealing with Vicksburg.

Lee would have to be something like Inspector General and specifically prohibited from field command for him to be as obscure as Cooper.
 
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Thus, even if Joe Johnston was not wounded at Seven Pines/Fair Oaks and proved himself an effective commander in combatting the Federal efforts in Virginia, Lee will still end up in the field - most likely taking charge after Beauregard went AWOL from the Army of Mississippi if command doesn't pass to Bragg or ending up as Commander of the Department of the West and dealing with Vicksburg.
This needs to be a Timeline.
 
Its not possible.

Samuel Cooper is obscure because he was Adjutant General, a high ranking staff officer specifically prohibited by Confederate Army regulations from taking the field, and effectively employed by Davis as a glorified clerk.

Robert E. Lee was a General of the Line, and even though he would be employed in staff work he was not a staff officer and would always be placed in the field in some capacity as the war progressed.

"Granny" Lee had been a failure as a field general. Jefferson Davis had moved Lee to an advisory position, which was staff in effect if not in name. If not for Johnston's wounding and Smith's breakdown, Lee probably never would have seen field command again. That would have made him about as obscure as Samuel Cooper.
 
"Granny" Lee had been a failure as a field general. Jefferson Davis had moved Lee to an advisory position, which was staff in effect if not in name. If not for Johnston's wounding and Smith's breakdown, Lee probably never would have seen field command again. That would have made him about as obscure as Samuel Cooper.

Though one thing that comes to mind. Lee had a pre-ACW record of distinction. Cooper did not.

Even if popular memory forgets it, "Captain Lee" would probably be remembered if anyone studies that war.
 
Lee was already known for capturing John Brown, and some daring exploits in Scott's march on Mexico City. Table scraps compared to his Civil War generalship, but already more noteworthy than anything Cooper had done.

Only way to make Bob Lee as little a footnote as Samuel Cooper is to give him command of the Air Force base on Shemya island, in the Bering Sea 1,200 miles southwest of Anchorage.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
True enough - and Davis would have had

"Granny" Lee had been a failure as a field general. Jefferson Davis had moved Lee to an advisory position, which was staff in effect if not in name. If not for Johnston's wounding and Smith's breakdown, Lee probably never would have seen field command again. That would have made him about as obscure as Samuel Cooper.

True enough - and Davis would have had AS Johnston, Beauregard, Bragg, and Hardee to chose from for the Army of Tennessee, if need be - no guarantee Lee does anything more than rusticate in the Carolinas after he loses in western Virginia.

Best,
 
Thanks Mr. Crafurd for this one - in the winter of 1861, RE "Granny" Lee had been in command in Western Virginia when the rebels were defeated there (by troops under the command of GB McClellan and WS Rosecrans, no less); he was kicked upstairs to the southeastern coast command (essentially, facing TW Sherman at Port Royal.)

In 1862, when the Peninsula Campaign got underway, he was back in Virginia, and was Davis' pick to relieve GW Smith after JE Johnston was wounded at Seven Pines.

But what if Johnston only gets his hair mussed by that shell, and remains in command?

My guess is Johnston would actually prove far more Fabian than Lee during the Peninsula Campaign, which would probably benefit the CSA in terms of sticking to a defensive strategy. Lee, meanwhile, might actually have been a positive force while suffering in silence as Davis' alleged chief of staff.

Or he drops dead from yellow fever in South Carolina in 1861.

Anyway, could make for a very different Eastern Theater.

Best,


Johnston as general is definitely not who you want defending Richmond. He had too little confidence in himself and Davis also had low confidence in him. As seen from his actions at Atlanta and Vicksburg, Johnston would do very little with his army except cautiously withdraw in the face of enemy advance, knowing full well that Union naval strength meant that McClellan could flank him on the James and York River. The inconclusive battle of Seven Pines would have reinforced his desire to withdraw even further.

The result would have been a Richmond that would have been placed under siege in mid-June (assuming Johnston wouldn't have withdrawn outright), and surrendering to Union guns sometime in 1862/early 1863, depriving the South of much of its munitions and industry and probably ending the CSA there and then.

The Peninsula Campaign was the Union's to lose: given enough time, Richmond would have fallen. The South needed Lee most in 1862, and had he not taken command there wouldn't be an Eastern Theater to speak of.

PS: sorry if it sounds like I hate Johnston or something. Johnston was useful if you wanted the enemy delayed, not defeated. So Johnston in command of Atlanta was probably a wise choice, given that the Confederates desperately needed to stall Sherman and have Lincoln lose re-election in 1864. Johnston tasked with saving Vicksburg or Richmond - places where the CSA needed to defeat Union armies - were not.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Sure - which would certainly have made for a different Eastern theater in 1862

The result would have been a Richmond that would have been placed under siege in mid-June (assuming Johnston wouldn't have withdrawn outright), and surrendering to Union guns sometime in 1862/early 1863, depriving the South of much of its munitions and industry and probably ending the CSA there and then. The Peninsula Campaign was the Union's to lose: given enough time, Richmond would have fallen. The South needed Lee most in 1862, and had he not taken command there wouldn't be an Eastern Theater to speak of.

Sure - which would certainly have made for a different Eastern theater in 1862.

Best,
 
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