RCAF/RAF Collaborate on Arrow/TSR

... about the blame game for all of this that poisoned relations between the aircraft companies and the government, and that killed any possibility of recovery.
IIRC it wasn't helped by the government falling in love with the whole management concept of prime contractors, only to then completely bastardise the idea by making Vickers the prime contractor but be responsible for just roughly forty per cent of the total contracts. Now there's certainly no guarantee that allowing Vickers to be in charge of everything as a proper prime contractor would make everything better, but from what little I've read it doesn't seem like it could really have made things any worse.
 
Back to the OP, the technology wasn't mature enough to combine the Arrow and TSR2 until the 80s with the F15E. The F4 went part of the way, but lacked the range of the F111/TSR2/Buccaneer and those 3 wouldn't have lasted long in an air to air confrontation.
 
It was the most effective thing the gummint did
I've never understood this intentionally misspelling of the word government. Is it intended to demonstrate a level of familiarity with the audience, or perhaps is an attempt to convey a level of wit?
 
From what I understand of both aircraft their biggest failure was one of Government will power to accept they are cutting edge and actually support them .

The Avro Arrow was designed as a long range supersonic interceptor for Canada and as such would have been ideal for any nation with long range bomber intercept as a requirement . The weapons system was one point of failure but could have been fixed if needed . It was however directly in competition with American aerospace companies and was politically expedient to cancel .

The Tsr2 was a different beast all together . It was designed to penetrate heavily defended airspace at low level in all weather drop nukes and then return . In most respects it was an aircraft that was one to three decades ahead of it's time . The avionics would cause much of the problems but also create it's niche capabilities . In many respects it should be seen not as a contemporary of the F-111 an incredible aircraft that was a brute force answer to the TSR-2 more elegant and sophisticated approach . It was destroyed by an act of government not by any particular failings of the program itself . The F-111 was more of a failure in the early days then the TSR-2 was at similar points of testing etc .

I can see no reason why the RAF could not have had a hundred Avro Arrow interceptors for the defence of the UK in particular over the GUIK gap . The TSR-2 is probably not as useful to Canada but might be a good Commonwealth purchase . IE Australia and Canada each operate one or 2 dozen . aS FAR AS Australia goes I would have seen us replace the entire Canberra force with TSR-2 and also operate 100 of the Avro Arrow , from bases in Darwin Indonesia would be easily cowed into submission .

On the balance of possible future capabilities the TSR-2 was more advanced aerodynamically and probably had a longer potential life . The Avro Arrow could by turning the weapons bay into a fuel bay and adding wing pylons and sparrow recesses have been ideal to defend Canada and the GUIK gap , it was how ever in my opinion not as capable as for example the F-4 Phantom .
 
I've never understood this intentionally misspelling of the word government. Is it intended to demonstrate a level of familiarity with the audience, or perhaps is an attempt to convey a level of wit?

Nope. There's a reason, but it's neither of those reasons for sure.
 
Perhaps I have the wrong end of the cultural tradition here, but it is an intentionally childish misspelling, intended to reflect contempt of the logic of government that a five year old child could see through and surpass;

and that one has to have the mental age at which one spells it like that to be comfortable functioning as a component of such a demonstrably malfunctioning government.

Or a pun- that government gums everything up. Either way.


Not sure it is actually true in this case, because only highly intelligent, focused thinkers convinced (rightly, IMO) that they were working in highly adverse circumstances and trying to salvage something for the country out of the mess could have tied themselves up in knots as they did, and got it so totally, shambolically wrong. A five year old child might actually have achieved a result.

Anyone who is seriously in favour of "the orderly management of decay" deserves all the insults that can be heaped upon them, even if a little inappropriate. I'd say they deserve a trip to the gallows myself, I was never consulted and don't want to live in a country slowly committing suicide, but it's too late now. The reason it could not all have been done is money, the root reason for the lack of money is war debt, but subsequent mismanagement didn't help.
 
I thought gummint was how a backwoods, hillbilly conspiracy theorist says government, particularly when getting wound up about the chemtrails, the moon landing and the like.
 
Probably you're right; but when you consider where much of America's aircraft and space engineering is done, it turns out that those backwoods hillbillies are responsible for the things leaving the contrails, and the footprints on the moon. Some of them must be using it ironically.
 
I have a speech impediment when I don't have my teeth in. I've got them in now. It's time for Christmas dinner. Merry Christmas, y'all.
 
What about the weapons if the Arrow did come to fruition and was bought by the RAF? IIRC the Arrow was to carry the Sparrow III which didn't eventuate and because it was in an internal weapons bay the weapon to an extent dictated design. What's more I don't think an internal weapons bay lends itself to the seekers of something like a Red Top even if it does fit.
 
There was a very promising thread a few months back about an alternative Canadian Armed Forces since the 1960s. I'd like to hear what the author of that thinks. And about the recent Australia and Canada buy Chieftain and Challenger tanks thread.
 
On the Canadian side I'd love to see the RCAF with unlimited funding buy at least 500 Arrows to replace the CF-100 in 25 RCAF squadrons (4 in 1st Air Div, 9 regular in ADC and 12 RCAuxAF squadrons).

Then it replaces the Starfighter with 200-240 Canadian built TSR2s which would equip 8 squadrons in the 1st Air Division.
 

Archibald

Banned
What about the weapons if the Arrow did come to fruition and was bought by the RAF? IIRC the Arrow was to carry the Sparrow III which didn't eventuate and because it was in an internal weapons bay the weapon to an extent dictated design. What's more I don't think an internal weapons bay lends itself to the seekers of something like a Red Top even if it does fit.

The Sparrow III was trying to create the AMRAAM with 50's technology - and without great success. The program was started for the Navy F5D Skylancer but soon they abandonned it - that's the moment when Canada stepped in and tried to make the Sparrow III workable. Even before the Arrow cancellation the Sparrow III was scrapped as unworkable. The expense of the system was a primary reason for the Arrow ballooning costs and eventual demise.
Everything else on the Arrow (airframe and engine) worked fine and was build within cost and timeline. The Sparrow III was the Arrow Achille 's heel.
Had Canada bought the F-102 or F-106 radar and missile system "off the shelf" the Arrow would have more easily integrated NORAD and Air Defence Command...
 
That's a very good suggestion, as the CL-90 and TSR2 had nearly identical roles, that of high speed, low level nuclear strike.

This is an extract from Scenario 1964 in Project Cancelled by Derek Wood.

In 1968, after NATO has abandoned the "Trip Wire" policy of nuclear retaliation, it becomes clear that the Soviet conventional build-up will require the operation of a very long-range air-to-air missile/gun-equipped fighter capable of CAP as far north as the Arctic circle. The TSR.2 with its massive internal and external fuel/weapon capacity, is the obvious choice. An initial batch of 50 "Air Defence Version" TSR.2s is ordered and at the same time another batch of strike aircraft is put in hand specifically for maritime operations.
A Canadian Government that is prepared to spend more money on defence or more likely that wants to create more jobs in Quebec would buy the TSR.2 ADV to replace the Voodoo if the Arrow was still cancelled.

IIRC from Shores history of the RCAF the Service wanted the Phantom to replace the Starfighter, but was made to accept the Freedom Fighter. ITTL it buys 200 standard TSR.2s built by Canadair in place of the Freedom Fighter and then 100 TSR.2 ADV in the early 1970s to replace the Voodoo.
 
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