Rank Insignia and Uniforms Thread

[Marc Pasquin]

-In the thread we had convene that Quebec was not really a puppet state per se since it didn't entered the war against the CSA or anyone else, it only send 30 or 40 thousand soldiers to help patrol Canada at US demand. So it had some latitude in its relation to the US.
-Obviously, but we imagined that Quebec would not want to wear British or US uniform either and French uniform kit would have been pretty cheap.
-Of course, this is why the uniform are pretty much the only French part (the insignias were added by Alterwright and I admit it make little sense), the only other option beside US uniform would have been a completely original model. We imagined that the nationalist government would not like to use US uniform since they wanted to have an ''independant'' image, not being seen as a ''french-USA''.
EDIT: they still use the US Stahlhelm and probably the US springfield, so its not like they adopted exactly the French uniform and arms.

Actually, a cheaper option than buying surplus uniforms from oversea, and an option used historically a number of time, would have been to keep uniforms stocks currently available locally (british style canadian militia uniforms in this case) and dye them some other colours (pale khaki could probably be turned dark green, burgundy, dark blue, etc....).

Even if the idea was to look different, the problem is that dressing as french soldiers doesn't seem like an option that would be considered. The nucleus of the Quebec Army would, one assume, be formed of french-canadian veteran of the canadian militia. The british-style uniform and insignia would be what they were familiar with so they would be more likely to tweak its appearance instead of choosing a uniform which, from their perspective, would be completely foreign.

If you want the quebec army to have a distinct feel, why now adopt elements of french-canadians folk costume like the tuque (wool hat) and ceinture flêchée (assomption sash) and for the insignia, just replace the crown, order of the bath and crossed baton & saber with a fleur-de-lys, a plain cross and crossed swords ? below, the original canadian items left and and to the right, possible "republic of quebec" adaptation.

 

[Undeadmuffin]

Actually, a cheaper option than buying surplus uniforms from oversea, and an option used historically a number of time, would have been to keep uniforms stocks currently available locally (british style canadian militia uniforms in this case) and dye them some other colours (pale khaki could probably be turned dark green, burgundy, dark blue, etc....).

Even if the idea was to look different, the problem is that dressing as french soldiers doesn't seem like an option that would be considered. The nucleus of the Quebec Army would, one assume, be formed of french-canadian veteran of the canadian militia. The british-style uniform and insignia would be what they were familiar with so they would be more likely to tweak its appearance instead of choosing a uniform which, from their perspective, would be completely foreign.

If you want the quebec army to have a distinct feel, why now adopt elements of french-canadians folk costume like the tuque (wool hat) and ceinture flêchée (assomption sash) and for the insignia, just replace the crown, order of the bath and crossed baton & saber with a fleur-de-lys, a plain cross and crossed swords ? below, the original canadian items left and and to the right, possible "republic of quebec" adaptation.

*snip*]

-Funny you mentionned the dyed British uniform because that was my initial proposition
-While your ideas to replace the insignias are good, I'm not so sure about the ceinture fléché as part of a military uniform

 

[Marc Pasquin]

-
-While your ideas to replace the insignias are good, I'm not so sure about the ceinture fléché as part of a military uniform

not for combat but I was thinking more for parade / ceremonial occasion as a more appropriate equivalent to the british waist sash:

 

[Deleted member 108228]

I have a question to ask. What could the possible ranks for an ISIS military be, if they were to win in Syria and Iraq? Would they try and purge the entire ranks of any western influence, or do the exact opposite, and try and integrate the best of the Western systems?

 

[MovingtargeT]

Despite geography, as the modern ranks of Syria and Iraq are basically stylized copies of the imperial British system I would suspect that ISIS/Daesh would scrap these and reach deep into the Koran for references. This would make sense as their fighters hail from different Muslim countries, some of which aren't native Arabic speakers and therefore don't necessarily support the modern notion of "Syria" or "Iraq" but their idea of a caliphate that is spread across the region. I also don't foresee them having typical unit organization (company, brigade, regiment, division, etc.) , but loose local affiliations based around geographic location and religious centers. Even if they gained ground and made some kind of internationally recognized quasi-state, militarily they would likely remain as a loose confederacy of units centered on a locally based political-religious leader.

 

[Deleted member 108228]

Despite geography, as the modern ranks of Syria and Iraq are basically stylized copies of the imperial British system I would suspect that ISIS/Daesh would scrap these and reach deep into the Koran for references. This would make sense as their fighters hail from different Muslim countries, some of which aren't native Arabic speakers and therefore don't necessarily support the modern notion of "Syria" or "Iraq" but their idea of a caliphate that is spread across the region. I also don't foresee them having typical unit organization (company, brigade, regiment, division, etc.) , but loose local affiliations based around geographic location and religious centers. Even if they gained ground and made some kind of internationally recognized quasi-state, militarily they would likely remain as a loose confederacy of units centered on a locally based political-religious leader.

Ah, so that could explain it. I was wondering since IS didn't seem to have any ranks, since I plan to use ISIS in one of my scenarios, and one of those things involved military ranks. So possibly, if they desire to create a more structural military (and that if they survive) in order to regroup after seeing weaknesses of this confederacy of units, then they could possibly look to the Rashidun/Ummayad army ranks in order to formulate a rank system that is "Islamic" in their eyes. If this were to occur (and unlikely given your input), then what ranks could exist for a ISIS rank system. I would imagine them to be few in number and rudimentary akin to the early Soviet system of 1918

 

[MovingtargeT]

I would guess that you're on the right track with a small tiered system like recruit, soldier, squad leader, then perhaps some kind of senior enlisted rank. It would not likely be something like the US military with a bulky enlisted system (E1-E9 with several sub-ranks and positions) that is geared towards a 20+ year career progression. If you haven't already, you should research other militant Islamic groups to see what their system is. There might be some info out there on the rank structure of various Palestinian groups.

 

[Marc Pasquin]

Ah, so that could explain it. I was wondering since IS didn't seem to have any ranks, since I plan to use ISIS in one of my scenarios, and one of those things involved military ranks. So possibly, if they desire to create a more structural military (and that if they survive) in order to regroup after seeing weaknesses of this confederacy of units, then they could possibly look to the Rashidun/Ummayad army ranks in order to formulate a rank system that is "Islamic" in their eyes. If this were to occur (and unlikely given your input), then what ranks could exist for a ISIS rank system. I would imagine them to be few in number and rudimentary akin to the early Soviet system of 1918

The problem I would see with using historical military terms would be that many of them were linked with nobility and / or being terms that were awarded by The Prophet or someone legitimately considered caliph by most believers which may be hard to reconcile with their rhetoric of ultra-orthodoxy as they do not currently have someone considered to have the legitimate authority to confer such titles.

So since they see themselves as a revolutionary group, they might eschew traditional rank names and go for things (in arabic) like "fighter", "group commander", "zone commander", etc.... Their organisation could also duplicate the political organisation of ISIS' Caliphate so that you would have, for the sake of example a "Military Commander of Mosul" under which would 44 "District Commanders" under each of which would be a varying number of "Cell Commander".

 

[Deleted member 108228]

The problem I would see with using historical military terms would be that many of them were linked with nobility and / or being terms that were awarded by The Prophet or someone legitimately considered caliph by most believers which may be hard to reconcile with their rhetoric of ultra-orthodoxy as they do not currently have someone considered to have the legitimate authority to confer such titles.

So since they see themselves as a revolutionary group, they might eschew traditional rank names and go for things (in arabic) like "fighter", "group commander", "zone commander", etc.... Their organisation could also duplicate the political organisation of ISIS' Caliphate so that you would have, for the sake of example a "Military Commander of Mosul" under which would 44 "District Commanders" under each of which would be a varying number of "Cell Commander".

I understand the concept, and so I tried my best in implementing the designs into a simplistic rank structure, based on the input of you and some others. I added Wilayah and Front Commander as seperate due to the idea of a front commander coordinating multiple Wilayah armies

 

[ST15RM]

I understand the concept, and so I tried my best in implementing the designs into a simplistic rank structure, based on the input of you and some others. I added Wilayah and Front Commander as seperate due to the idea of a front commander coordinating multiple Wilayah armies

oh no

 

[NickBana]

With the brouhaha about the reinstatement of Sarawak Rangers, one Redditor created this:

 

[MovingtargeT]

I understand the concept, and so I tried my best in implementing the designs into a simplistic rank structure, based on the input of you and some others. I added Wilayah and Front Commander as seperate due to the idea of a front commander coordinating multiple Wilayah armies.

Nice work, Ernak. I must mention that "wilayah" in Arabic translates to state or province. You might want to amend this title to "Wilayah Commander" or "Wilayah Leader"...something along those lines. Also, "private" is short for "private soldier," but I would suspect that a more proper term for an insurgent group member would be "volunteer" or even "volunteer martyr" in an ISIS scenario. Even something like "jundi" or "askari" (both meaning soldier or warrior in Arabic) would be more appropriate. Also, a "Front Commander" denotes that they are on the front lines. If an insurgent caliphate spreads, there might be interior provinces that are not necessarily on "the front." Perhaps "Regional Commander" might be a better title. Just a thought.

I must also say that the Caliph insignia is fairly plain. As most generals, field marshalls, insurgent leaders, etc. have worked their way up the ranks, they want to thoroughly be recognized by a flashy insignia (and probably a chest full of superfluous medals...see Saddam Hussein or Mo'ammar Qaddafi, for example). I would also recommend that you fancy this one up a bit. Maybe a crescent moon with a star and crossed swords? If you want some translation or cultural tips, I'm fluent in Arabic, if that helps.

- MT

 

[Cydonius]

With the brouhaha about the reinstatement of Sarawak Rangers, one Redditor created this:
<snip>

Not bad, although it's a shame the creator used a brigadier's insignia for a brigadier general. It should be just a crossed sword and baton with no other elements to it, brigadier general being the lowest rank of general officer while brigadier is the highest field officer. But then at least two OTL militaries (Bangladesh and Egypt) have made the same error so I guess it makes them no less realistic.

 

[Deleted member 108228]

Nice work, Ernak. I must mention that "wilayah" in Arabic translates to state or province. You might want to amend this title to "Wilayah Commander" or "Wilayah Leader"...something along those lines. Also, "private" is short for "private soldier," but I would suspect that a more proper term for an insurgent group member would be "volunteer" or even "volunteer martyr" in an ISIS scenario. Even something like "jundi" or "askari" (both meaning soldier or warrior in Arabic) would be more appropriate. Also, a "Front Commander" denotes that they are on the front lines. If an insurgent caliphate spreads, there might be interior provinces that are not necessarily on "the front." Perhaps "Regional Commander" might be a better title. Just a thought.

I must also say that the Caliph insignia is fairly plain. As most generals, field marshalls, insurgent leaders, etc. have worked their way up the ranks, they want to thoroughly be recognized by a flashy insignia (and probably a chest full of superfluous medals...see Saddam Hussein or Mo'ammar Qaddafi, for example). I would also recommend that you fancy this one up a bit. Maybe a crescent moon with a star and crossed swords? If you want some translation or cultural tips, I'm fluent in Arabic, if that helps.

- MT

Alright, I will get to revamping the Caliph rank to be more recognizable to the eye. Meanwhile, I did revamp the ranks to include a bit more ranks, as well as editing the ranks above the Wali.

I did have an idea to have circular Arabic on the Caliph rank saying "Caliph of the Islamic State", but I'm not sure if it could work.

 

[xt828]

Not bad, although it's a shame the creator used a brigadier's insignia for a brigadier general. It should be just a crossed sword and baton with no other elements to it, brigadier general being the lowest rank of general officer while brigadier is the highest field officer. But then at least two OTL militaries (Bangladesh and Egypt) have made the same error so I guess it makes them no less realistic.

Brigadier and Brigadier General are the same rank. The use of three pips is common to Commonwealth nations, including not just Bangladesh and Egypt, but also Australia, Britain, India, New Zealand, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and others.

 

[Cydonius]

Brigadier and Brigadier General are the same rank. The use of three pips is common to Commonwealth nations, including not just Bangladesh and Egypt, but also Australia, Britain, India, New Zealand, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and others.

No, they're not. They're considered to be the same level of officer in the Nato rank charts, but as I said one is a general officer and the other a field officer. There is an important distinction between what those two groups of officers are expected to do within an army. Up until 1922, a rank of Brigadier General existed in the British Army (and related forces), with an insignia of a crossed sword and baton. Then it was abolished and a rank of Colonel Commandant was created, because during the First World War particularly the officers at that level had become senior colonels in terms of what they did, not junior generals. In 1928 a position of brigadier was created, but like commodore for naval captains it was something that existing colonels were appointed to, not promoted to, on account of being a colonel in charge of a specific size of force or specific establishment.

It only became a proper rank in British usage after the Second World War. And they are still senior colonels, not junior generals. So as a senior colonel you get three pips and the crown, as a junior general they got the crossed sword and baton of all general officer ranks, without pips. It also changes which style of cap you wear and what accoutrements are added to your parade and dress uniforms.

Australia definitely still keeps to this pattern, their brigadier rank is one of two 'senior officer' ranks along with colonel, and is not a general officer rank. Canada also observed the difference, switching insignia to one for general officers when they abolished brigadier and reintroduced brigadier general in 1968. India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka I can't comment on, as I don't have enough information from the available English-language sources to tell, and I can't read Hindi, Urdu, Sinhala or Tamil. New Zealand will have to wait until my kiwi ex-army cousin-in-law replies to my email.

So while many countries do treat them as interchangable and they're parked on the same level in the Nato rank chart, and some countries have undoubtedly changed the function of a brigadier into that of a brigadier general without bothering to change the actual rank title, in proper usage they are different ranks with different responsibilites.

 

[Color-Copycat]

Uniforms for a Texacoran hereditary captain, synthetic recon sergeant, and other ranks of a skirmisher company.

Drawn from the soldier-citizenry of the frontier territories of the Corriol Sea, just below the uninhabitable zone of the equatorial wastes, the rank and file of the 5th Provisional Field Regiment represent the perfect archetype of the Old Salt Marine and his Field Regiment. Although the Corriol Sea archipelagos and island chains were not settled by Texacoran garrison-reservists until long after the First War Between the Fleets, those agri-steaders and militiamen were largely drawn from across the breadth of the old Texacoran heartlands in the far south. The descendants of those original settlers have carried on the history and traditions of their illustrious forefathers, forever entrenching a transplanted piece of Old Texacor into the borderlands of the near-equatorial frontier. Situated so closely to the hidden lairs and camouflaged anchorages of the savage Freeporter pirate tribes that ravaged the equatorial wastes to their north, the Texacoran garrison-bases and ports of the Corriol Sea were gradually established over a half century of bloody frontier warfare which gave their soldier-citizenry a storied founding history of their own to add to that of their southern ancestors. The common cause against the barbaric Freeporter pirates occasioned informal alliances and military collaboration with the roving Orbitaaler clans and mercantile republics of the equatorial wastes, whose Legionaar tactical officers shared a common profession and passion for tactical matters with the soldier-citizenry of the Corriol Sea. During those bloody years of mutual campaigning against the merciless Freeporter tribes, Orbitaaler-Legionaar style and thinking came to influence the nascent military culture of the Corriol Sea Texacorans, far removed as they were from the dictates of the Secretary of War and General Staff. After the suppression of the Freeporter threat and the opening of the equatorial passages, however, contact with the insular and nomadic Orbitaaler republics naturally diminished and the traditional Texacoran ways in the Corriol Sea were reinforced with the improvement and expansion of shipping and trade routes to the southern heartlands. In the present day, the only outward relic of this historical collaboration with the Orbitaaler clans is to be found in the Legionaar-style gaiters worn by Corriol Sea Marines over their combat boots, a fashion style that has given their 5th Regiment the half-mocking sobriquet of "Frontier Zouaves".

Though the bitter days of the Freeporter Wars are long gone, the Frontier Zouaves have continued to inscribe their feats within the annals of Texacoran military history. Along with the other Provisional Field Regiments of the Corriol Sea and the the single regiment drawn from the scattered Texacoran colonial garrisons of the northern hemisphere, the Frontier Zouaves constitute an inseparable element of the famed and illustrious Stalwart Brigade, whose shrapnel-scarred battle flag is embroidered with battle honors that echo the names of many a battlefield from the Second War Between the Fleets. Indeed it was in this conflict that the Brigade established its reputation as the elite shock formation of the Texacoran Third Amphibious Division. Marines of the Stalwart Brigade in the present day still proudly wear their blanket rolls over their rain cloaks, ostensibly in imitation of the Stalwart Brigade veterans who fought in the blood-soaked trenches at the Battle of Seven Palms. Having been ordered by Brigadier General Archer to prepare for a second daylight assault on the center salient of the Kommersant defensive works, the hardened campaigners of the Stalwart Brigade circulated unofficial instructions for all Marines to wear their blanket rolls over their rain cloaks so that the excess weight of their superfluous kit could be rapidly discarded at a moment's notice before the final decisive charge. Subsequent modifications to the design of the modern Texacoran rain cloak have rendered this celebrated innovation an unnecessary precaution, but the Marines of the latter day Stalwart Brigade continue to practice it as a means of visually distinguishing themselves as an elite formation relative to the other brigades of the Third Amphibious Division.

 

[Midnight-Blue766]

Here's my take on what the uniforms of a WW2-era Imperial Germany that survived WW1 may look like (originally developed for LAISOT/Convergence, and posted onto r/Kaiserreich for a thread about the same). Critique is welcome:

My take on this was pretty conservative, with the average infantryman looking generally very similar to a OTL Wehrmacht soldier (the transition between WW1-era, interwar and WW2-era uniforms looked pretty "natural" [so to speak] to me, so I decided to keep it as it was), but with the following differences (this focuses primarily on infantry and the enlisted in particular):

• No Nazi swastikas or emblems anywhere (this is obvious)
• There is a single helmet shield on the left side, which are the colours of the local state the unit is from as in the Reichswehr (Nazi Germany introduced one national emblem which I'm guessing to have been part of a centralisation process seeing that autonomy for local regions like Bavaria and Saxony were phased out at the same time [correct me if I'm wrong])
• The ski cap, I imagine, would mainly be associated with Austrian troops and would probably not be adopted by Germany, which would retain 1930s side-caps through the war. Now, before the adaptation of the side caps, the most realistic option would be for German enlisted to be wearing some sort of evolution of the WW1-era visorless field cap; but I'm going to confess here that I gave them the OTL Weimar peaked cap that was previously reserved only for officers or as a private purchase (possibly even retaining some variant of them into the 1930s and 40s and beyond), despite the fact that it's not very realistic for reasons outlined below, solely because they looked cool.
• Cap insignia would probably resemble some sort of hybrid between Weimar-era caps and later WW2-era caps: there'd certainly be at the bottom the national black, white and red national cockade, which may or may not be surrounded by laurels as IOTL (WW1 German caps lacked this), but instead of a Nazi eagle there would, of course, be the cockade of the state the unit was from as in World War I and the Interwar period. Assuming the Germans do indeed adopt side caps, whether they have only one insignia for enlisted ranks (the national cockade) or two with the second being in the colours of the local polity is up for debate, but I think it'd be the latter considering how important those local polities were to pre-Nazi German politics.
• Gorget patches, like the pre-WWI German Army, are reserved for certain officers and elite units, if present at all (these were added for enlisted men in 1921 after seemingly being removed from the Feldgrau uniforms save for in a much simplified form for officers; my guess was that their reintroduction was part of a process to make the army seem more egalitarian after the end of the monarchy)
• Greatcoats are a little more complicated: in 1919 (or thereabouts), the Weimar Republic introduced double breasted greatcoats for enlisted men, which were previously reserved only for officers while enlisted men wore single-breasted greatcoats, and Wehrmacht soldiers continued to wear such double-breasted greatcoats in World War II. Now I suppose that our hypothetical Imperial German troops may very well be wearing only single-breasted greatcoats, but then again in World War I, (from what my research can ascertain) British infantrymen too wore only single-breasted greatcoats whereas officers (apparently?) wore double-breasted overcoats, only for the UK to transition into a single, double-breasted greatcoat by 1940, so one can argue that the Germans could wear such double-breasted greatcoats later on? (The latter is the path I took, again admittedly because double breasted greatcoats look cooler)

 

[Marc Pasquin]

Here's my take on what the uniforms of a WW2-era Imperial Germany that survived WW1 may look like (originally developed for LAISOT/Convergence, and posted onto r/Kaiserreich for a thread about the same). Critique is welcome:

- Nazi emblems: while obviously the swastika would have no place on ATL imperial uniform, WW2-era regalia is nonetheless a continuation of german military heritage so that, at least in some case, uniforms and badges from OTL could be plausibly adopted ATL with only some minor changes. example below, ww2 general combat badge OTL and ATL

- Gorget patch: another thing to take into consideration was the fact that modern warfare tend to dislike large patch of bright colours while on the battlefield so, at least for lower ranking troops, you might get the shape of the patch in a subdued colours only.

- Cap Insignia: while they more than likely would not adopt regimental cap badge, they might switch from 2 cockades to a single stamped metal badge in the shape of their politie's COA (since all men would wear the same german pattern uniform) or another option would be to keep the subnational cockade but under a metal imperial eagle or a single pattern branch emblem (army, air force, navy, etc....).

Just for you interest, here was my take on a non-nazi ww2 german uniform standards in the Ill Bethisad timeline:

http://ib.frath.net/w/German_Uniforms_During_the_Second_Great_War_(Proposal)

 

[Color-Copycat]

The Afrikanderized nature of the Kompanie Villebois-Mareuil is evident in the pragmatic kit and dress of its Legionaare. Unlike the purists of the venerable Legionaar republics, the Afrikanderized Legionaare of the Kompanie Villebois-Mareuil opt for comfort in the field over smart parade-ground appearance in wearing their combat tunics underneath their Cuirasse armor and their cloth neck covers beneath their Casque neck guard plates. Furthermore, the broad-brimmed "chapeau de brousse coloniale", though a traditional if uncommon item of headgear among the purist Legionaar companies, is much in favor among the Villebois-Mareuil Legionaare, who appreciate the bush hat's similarity to the traditional Afrikander slouch hat. Though lacking the comprehensive ballistic protection offered by the iconic M86 Casque, the Legionaar bush hat offers greater comfort during extended campaigning in the equatorial wastes and may still be worn with the Casque's detachable neck guard segments for a modicum of ballistic protection.