Rank Insignia and Uniforms Thread

[Tiro]

Now this being AlternateHistory.com and not Arts&Crafts.com/BleedingEdge, one imagines that rather more than one other enthusiast has read and enjoyed that fascinating curio THE REIGN OF KING GEORGE VI.1900-1925 (A Forecast written in the year 1763), a Future History of the 20th century written all the way back in the 18th - and one that has, therefore, been rendered an Alternate History long, long since (if not an outright fantasy).

The book will not be to everyone's taste, but if you're looking to scratch that Napoleonic itch and willing to make allowances, you can most certainly do worse - especially if you're British or an Anglophile (or have a sense of humour that enjoys those little "SUCH an Optimist" moments one occasionally sees in forecasts).


Now, as a fellow who's been reading a book or two about the Seven Years/French & Indian War era and the American War of Independence to boot (and has a history of fascination with the Napoleonic Wars to boot), it's fair to say that this book caught my eye & caught hold of my imagination - partly because, a little like contemplating the Antikythera Mechanism, it's fascinating to imagine someone dead two hundred years and more doing something so contemporary-feeling as imagining a Speculative History of the distant future as something more like a ripping yarn than sober history, but also because it's equally interesting to wonder what this anonymous author's vision of the 20th Century actually looked like.

'What does the 20th Century look like, as imagined by a native of the 18th?' has to be one of the more intriguing seldom-asked questions and given that the scenario presented by this fictive history is so inherently friendly to war-gamers I've been moved to wonder just what the Armies of George VI.1900-1935 (as well as those of his allies and enemies) might look like for some little time now.

With that in mind I'm hoping to share some ideas and would love to hear the thoughts of any interested parties - more to follow later, but for the moment I think it's safe to start with my idea that the most interesting version of this idea would combine elements from the various armies that actually fought the first Great War of the 20th Century and those that the original author might have been familiar with.

With that in mind I think it's safe to say that, whatever else one can dream up, redcoats and army moustaches will be standard issue for the regiments of THIS George VI!

 

[Marc Pasquin]

Now this being AlternateHistory.com and not Arts&Crafts.com/BleedingEdge, one imagines that rather more than one other enthusiast has read and enjoyed that fascinating curio THE REIGN OF KING GEORGE VI.1900-1925 (A Forecast written in the year 1763), a Future History of the 20th century written all the way back in the 18th - and one that has, therefore, been rendered an Alternate History long, long since (if not an outright fantasy).

The book will not be to everyone's taste, but if you're looking to scratch that Napoleonic itch and willing to make allowances, you can most certainly do worse - especially if you're British or an Anglophile (or have a sense of humour that enjoys those little "SUCH an Optimist" moments one occasionally sees in forecasts).


Now, as a fellow who's been reading a book or two about the Seven Years/French & Indian War era and the American War of Independence to boot (and has a history of fascination with the Napoleonic Wars to boot), it's fair to say that this book caught my eye & caught hold of my imagination - partly because, a little like contemplating the Antikythera Mechanism, it's fascinating to imagine someone dead two hundred years and more doing something so contemporary-feeling as imagining a Speculative History of the distant future as something more like a ripping yarn than sober history, but also because it's equally interesting to wonder what this anonymous author's vision of the 20th Century actually looked like.

'What does the 20th Century look like, as imagined by a native of the 18th?' has to be one of the more intriguing seldom-asked questions and given that the scenario presented by this fictive history is so inherently friendly to war-gamers I've been moved to wonder just what the Armies of George VI.1900-1935 (as well as those of his allies and enemies) might look like for some little time now.

With that in mind I'm hoping to share some ideas and would love to hear the thoughts of any interested parties - more to follow later, but for the moment I think it's safe to start with my idea that the most interesting version of this idea would combine elements from the various armies that actually fought the first Great War of the 20th Century and those that the original author might have been familiar with.

With that in mind I think it's safe to say that, whatever else one can dream up, redcoats and army moustaches will be standard issue for the regiments of THIS George VI!

the french army of early world war 1 OTL wore blue jackets and red pants so for an alt-UK army, you could have ww1 type uniform but with the jacket being red and dark grey pants for light infantry and other non-khaki colours depending on the branch,

 

[da Racontor]

the french army of early world war 1 OTL wore blue jackets and red pants so for an alt-UK army, you could have ww1 type uniform but with the jacket being red and dark grey pants for light infantry and other non-khaki colours depending on the branch,

Slightly off topic, but did the British ever have a non-khaki color proposal to replace the red uniforms?

 

[Marc Pasquin]

Slightly off topic, but did the British ever have a non-khaki color proposal to replace the red uniforms?

not that I'm aware of but bear in mind that red jackets were only worn by some units (artillery wore blue and rifles wore green) so it's possible that other branches might have considered subdued versions of their own traditional colours.

During the war of 1812 for example, a french-canadian unit wore rifle-type uniforms but in grey instead of green.

lower right you can see an officer of the Voltigeurs Canadiens wearing a similar green uniform as the british Rifles regiments while upper left, you have a private of the Voltigeurs Canadiens wearing a grey version of the same uniform.

 

[David-Shiell]

(I remember thinking that the Canadian troops engaged alongside US forces in the Aleutian campaign would be a useful reference & precedent - one vaguely recalls their being issued with US uniform - but I have yet to track down a useful illustration of those stalwart sons of the Great White North)

First Special Service Force

US Army Rangers & LRRPs

US Army Airborne

Canadian Forces in World War II

All of these titles have details, photographs, and illustrations of Canadian personnel in US uniform. The last three illustrated by Ron Volstad.

 

[Tiro]

David-Shiell, Thank you most kindly for pointing me in the direction of these resources - it's especially interesting to learn that Canadian forces attached to the American reconquest of the Aleutian Islands (the officers, at least) wore both American AND Canadian rank insignia (US on the left collar of their blouses and to the left of the regimental badges on their berets; Canadian insignia on the shoulder straps of their battledress).

One wonders if other elements of the Commonwealth Corps would have done the same?

 

[Marc Pasquin]

David-Shiell, Thank you most kindly for pointing me in the direction of these resources - it's especially interesting to learn that Canadian forces attached to the American reconquest of the Aleutian Islands (the officers, at least) wore both American AND Canadian rank insignia (US on the left collar of their blouses and to the left of the regimental badges on their berets; Canadian insignia on the shoulder straps of their battledress).

One wonders if other elements of the Commonwealth Corps would have done the same?

Ranks are the most important thing to convey quickly in a dual-nationality strike forces whereas things like branches or qualifications are a bit secondary. One difference between the US and Canadian army at the time is that the hat badge of the first was generic whereas the ones worn by canadians were based on regiment or branch, On one hand you could have the canadian personnel wear a single "canadian army" hat badge but on the other hand, badges were an important part of the esprit de corps so you might not want to drop them.

 

[Tiro]

the french army of early world war 1 OTL wore blue jackets and red pants so for an alt-UK army, you could have ww1 type uniform but with the jacket being red and dark grey pants for light infantry and other non-khaki colours depending on the branch,

View attachment 645899

M. Pasquin, this is a worthy concept in its own right - rather horrible to contemplate a Government & High Command foolhardy enough to send redcoats against machine guns, even worse to recall that the French Army actually did something so wilfully stupid in Real Life out of wounded National Pride.

It would definitely make sense to homage the 'tin hat' of World War I & II by (at the very least) showing the local redcoats use round hats of the sort frequently worn during the American Revolution to mimic the silhouette of Tommy Atkins in the trenches - and showing them use puttees would probably be quite workable too, though gaitered 'American trousers' might be more in keeping with the 18th century notions of style on which this setting is built.

For the record, my notion of this setting is that it has arms technology roughly equivalent to the early-to-mid 19th century; still rich with smoothbore 'Napoleons' and muskets, but with percussion caps rather than firelocks (and with rifle-muskets & rifled cannon increasingly coming into use). Steam-driven technology either absent or fabulously obscure (so canals, rather than railroads and steam-driven ships are cutting edge to the point of being experimental at best), but hot air balloons see some use and binoculars are not uncommon.

In terms of British Army uniforms, an adaptation (or illustration) of the original would probably have to deal with two specific periods - one more briefly than the other - to wit, the Year 1900 (In which His Majesty assumes the throne and is then obliged to kick the Russian invaders off British soil, then right back to the other side of the North Sea, as you do), at which point the army and (to a lesser extent) the navy are likely to show the consequences of false economies inflicted in the interest of coping with the consequences of debt by the mint-load, and the Years of the Great War (if memory serves from 1919-1921), by which point The King has had the better part of a quarter century to bring his forces into a condition of some splendour.

My assumption is that the infantry would likely wear red coats with blue trousers (a nod to the dress uniforms of the pre-WWI period), with black cocked or round hats, brown or black leather equipment: boots likely brown or black leather. Facings vary by regiment, but regimental lace may be limited to plain white (with only the shape of the lace changing between regiments). Hair still worn long in a que, but powdered only on parade. Not sure if grenadiers should wear bearskins or cloth mitre caps - the latter offer more opportunities to display regimental badges, if nothing else.

Perhaps fusiliers wear bearskins, grenadiers mitre caps?

Artillery still bluecoats, cavalry likely follow the heavy cavalry = redcoat, light cavalry = bluejacket paradigm (Not sure if there ought to be lancer regiments in this British Army, but there has explicitly been at least one long war against Russia, fought during the 19th century, so its possible the Poles fought alongside the British Army long enough to make an impression).


At this point one realises that I should almost certainly look up British army full dress uniforms from just prior to the Great War and consider how one can filter them through a late 19th-century aesthetic (probably from the 1790s, just before the French Revolution & associated war-making); I also ought to look through the book once again and work out just how many armies are actually involved in the diverse conflicts (So far as I can remember the British, Russians, French, Austro-Prussians*, Kingdom of Italy as formed by the Two Sicilies, the Kingdom of Venice**, the Electorates of Hanover & Bavaria, the Swiss Confederation and the Spanish are all mentioned - as are American Provincials from His Britannic Majesty's Province of Louisiana).

Things to do, things to do ...

*No, really - a Hohenzollern appears to have emulated Henri IV sometime in the 19th century ("The Reich is worth the rosary" ya?).

**Clearly somebody pulled a Medici on la Serenissima.

 

[Tiro]

Ranks are the most important thing to convey quickly in a dual-nationality strike forces whereas things like branches or qualifications are a bit secondary. One difference between the US and Canadian army at the time is that the hat badge of the first was generic whereas the ones worn by canadians were based on regiment or branch, On one hand you could have the canadian personnel wear a single "canadian army" hat badge but on the other hand, badges were an important part of the esprit de corps so you might not want to drop them.

From what I can gather, a regiment in the British tradition would rather lose its toes than its regimental distinctions!

 

[Tiro]

I swear, one sometimes gets the impression that a major reason Republicanism never really got a grip on the British Isles is because the regiments of the British Army one night got the horrible nightmare image of suffering the indignity of becoming '1st Infantry' '33rd Infantry' '5th Cavalry' etc and swore never to rest nor enter Heaven if they couldn't uphold their right to look FANCY & sound Old World.

 

[Filo]

OT: I know that this thread is registered as spam, but i don't know where put these...be kind with me.

IT: Military ranks of the Army of Galileo.
The ranks are pretty similar to other states in the Solar System. The only true difference is the sixth rank of Empire Marshal. He commanded a whole front or theatre of war and is bestowed directly by the Emperor.
The present Marshal of the Empire is Mar. Fabius Terril.

 

[Marc Pasquin]

View attachment 727693
OT: I know that this thread is registered as spam, but i don't know where put these...be kind with me.

IT: Military ranks of the Army of Galileo.
The ranks are pretty similar to other states in the Solar System. The only true difference is the sixth rank of Empire Marshal. He commanded a whole front or theatre of war and is bestowed directly by the Emperor.
The present Marshal of the Empire is Mar. Fabius Terril.

is the "full general" supposed to be between the "brigadier general" and the "division general" ?

 

[Filo]

Oh, yes. It's clearly an error of mine.
I'll correct when i could.
Thanks.

 

[Filo]

This time, i should have done right.

 

[Petike]

I am thinking of creating a set of rank insignias for a fictional future law enforcement agency, from my own science fiction setting.

As they are an interstellar police force (sort of like an interstellar Interpol), I was thinking about a backdrop with a swirling shape of the Galaxy, and different additions and configurations denoting rank. The agency is known as the Pax Stellarium, so some Galaxy and Dove motifs would be fairly fitting, IMHO. Though not for every single rank. Any suggestions what simple design language I could use for these police ranks ?

The rank titles, from trainee to head of the agency: Journeyman (J), Lawman (L), Watcher (W), Keeper (K), Protector (P), Guardian (G),
Constellar-Watcher (CW), Constellar-Keeper (CK), Constellar-Protector (CP), Constellar-Guardian (CG), Deputy Constellar (DC), Chief Constellar (CC)

 

[Marc Pasquin]

I am thinking of creating a set of rank insignias for a fictional future law enforcement agency, from my own science fiction setting.

As they are an interstellar police force (sort of like an interstellar Interpol), I was thinking about a backdrop with a swirling shape of the Galaxy, and different additions and configurations denoting rank. The agency is known as the Pax Stellarium, so some Galaxy and Dove motifs would be fairly fitting, IMHO. Though not for every single rank. Any suggestions what simple design language I could use for these police ranks ?

The rank titles, from trainee to head of the agency: Journeyman (J), Lawman (L), Watcher (W), Keeper (K), Protector (P), Guardian (G),
Constellar-Watcher (CW), Constellar-Keeper (CK), Constellar-Protector (CP), Constellar-Guardian (CG), Deputy Constellar (DC), Chief Constellar (CC)

Journeyman, to me, sounds more like a guild member than a policeman. Maybe "Probationary-Lawman" instead ?

One thing about the ranks is that they might more clearly indicate roles within the organisation: Inspector, patrolman, chief of a unit, etc...

 

[Petike]

Journeyman, to me, sounds more like a guild member than a policeman. Maybe "Probationary-Lawman" instead ?

It makes sense within the society this law enforcement agency exists in. The same goes for the other poetic-sounding ranks.

(Think of the society as halfway between Dune and BattleTech, rather than a Star Trek or Star Wars style society.)

One thing about the ranks is that they might more clearly indicate roles within the organisation: Inspector, patrolman, chief of a unit, etc...

These are just the base ranks, they tend to include some added information based on the exact area of expertise.

 

[Cydonius]

I am thinking of creating a set of rank insignias for a fictional future law enforcement agency, from my own science fiction setting.

As they are an interstellar police force (sort of like an interstellar Interpol), I was thinking about a backdrop with a swirling shape of the Galaxy, and different additions and configurations denoting rank. The agency is known as the Pax Stellarium, so some Galaxy and Dove motifs would be fairly fitting, IMHO. Though not for every single rank. Any suggestions what simple design language I could use for these police ranks ?

The rank titles, from trainee to head of the agency: Journeyman (J), Lawman (L), Watcher (W), Keeper (K), Protector (P), Guardian (G),
Constellar-Watcher (CW), Constellar-Keeper (CK), Constellar-Protector (CP), Constellar-Guardian (CG), Deputy Constellar (DC), Chief Constellar (CC)

I wonder if it might work to have the galaxy motif used similarly to the Crossed Batons and Wreath element of Commonwealth police forces, i.e. as a device at one end of the insignia to denote all the Constellar-* ranks. A flag rank marker, as it were. I worry that if you tried to use a base galaxy design and change/add elements to it, then you'll end up with insignia that are quite hard to tell apart especially across a room.

Are Journeymen the kind of trainee that learns in classroom settings in an academy, or do they go out and about too before being commissioned as Lawmen? If they're academy-bound then I'd be inclined not to give them any insignia at all, or to have a simplistic separate system just among the trainees to get them used to accounting for rank with everyone they have contact with, not just the training staff. Then only commissioned/warranted etc. officers, i.e. with the power of arrest, would have rank insignia.

...
One thing about the ranks is that they might more clearly indicate roles within the organisation: Inspector, patrolman, chief of a unit, etc...

I have to take the opposite position, personally.

A lot of organisations mess this up IMHO. Ranks are about a chain of command and should provide a clear hierarchy for the organisation. Positions/functions are more changeable and 'muddier' and including them in a rank table feels like a path to an unholy mess like the Austro-Hungarian K.u.K. rank tables.

 

[Petike]

I wonder if it might work to have the galaxy motif used similarly to the Crossed Batons and Wreath element of Commonwealth police forces, i.e. as a device at one end of the insignia to denote all the Constellar-* ranks. A flag rank marker, as it were. I worry that if you tried to use a base galaxy design and change/add elements to it, then you'll end up with insignia that are quite hard to tell apart especially across a room.

This is exactly what I had in mind. The more overt symbol for the organization - likely part of its main emblem as well, in addition to the "batons and wreath" position on the rank bar - would be the swirling Milky Way. Maybe with an added symbolic dove at the centre, as a "keeping the peace" symbol. Who knows. The ranks themselves would use certain shapes and lines (maybe even a simple four-pointed star) in particular numbers, denoting the position of the rank within the chain of command. So, in short, the more galactic symbolism denotes what organization it is (i.e. the "Pax Stellaris" police force, the "FBI of Human Space" or "Interpol of Human Space"), and the other symbols denote the rank itself. This way, even a person unfamiliar with potential uniformed policemen could figure out quickly they're not part of some armed forces. (As for detectives, they're plainclothes, even in the future.)

Are Journeymen the kind of trainee that learns in classroom settings in an academy, or do they go out and about too before being commissioned as Lawmen? If they're academy-bound then I'd be inclined not to give them any insignia at all, or to have a simplistic separate system just among the trainees to get them used to accounting for rank with everyone they have contact with, not just the training staff. Then only commissioned/warranted etc. officers, i.e. with the power of arrest, would have rank insignia.

"Journeyman" (colloquially a "Jay", á la real world "rookie" or "pheasant") is a trainee that goes through not only academic, theoretical education and training in criminology and law enforcement, but also in practical training "in the field". In other words, the "Journeymen" space cops of my setting have to travel around a fair bit and help investigate and solve plenty of assignments until they get promoted to the lowest full-blown rank of "Lawman".

This is also where the term for the "Journeyman" rank originates, in terms of inspiration. In the past, apprentices of craftsmen and various guilds had to go on travels within a country or several countries, to hone their knowledge and skills, craft some masterwork items, and otherwise prove their theoretical and particularly practical training in the preceding years. This is also a semi-feudal/semi-aristocratic future society, with a lot of archaic elements and naming conventions in its society and culture. Hence a policeman rank that sounds like an outright anachronism. (I also did not want to use "Apprentice", as that tends to be terminologically overused in scenarios like this one.) "Lawman" was also chosen because the setting has occassional Space Western esthetics.

I have to take the opposite position, personally.

Ooh. (In truth, I actually like both of your feedback on the ranks. You both make genuinely good points.)

A lot of organisations mess this up IMHO. Ranks are about a chain of command and should provide a clear hierarchy for the organisation.

I am inclined to agree. These are law enforcement ranks and I want to keep them as understandable as possible, with it being absolutely clear which is the lowest rank and which rank is the highest, within this interstellar police agency's chain of command.

The "constellar-something" ranks denote higher officers of law enforcement, usually in charge of larger police units or whole police forces in a given location or sector (depending on the height of the rank). Some of these will head local or district "constellaries" (the equivalent of constabularies), higher-ranking ones will lead regional ones, even more higher-ranking ones will be responsible for "planet and its vicinity" operations, or even a whole system (though whether a whole system or one part of a particular system depends on how inhabited it is). From a contemporary British perspective, the highest of these "hyphenated" ranks would be akin to "superintendent", with the rough equivalent of "chief superintendent" being the last of the "constellar-" ranks. The last two ranks are so high, they're in the high command of the entire interstellar organization. The penultimate oversees entire sectors of several to many system, and the last rank is the boss of the entire organization.

Positions/functions are more changeable and 'muddier' and

Pretty much the way I see it. My own naming convention would be "Lawman Detective", "Keeper Detective", "Protector Inspector", etc.

including them in a rank table feels like a path to an unholy mess like the Austro-Hungarian K.u.K. rank tables.

Watch it, I'm an Austria-Hungary fanboy !

More seriously, like a lot of things with Austria-Hungary, those ranks did indeed get a bit elaborate and complex (or outright complicated).

 

[cheemingwan1234]

Okay, for interstellar settings, how would a Prussian/Imperial German style rank system work? I was thinking it would make sense for water naval operations to transferred over to planetside armies whereas the actual Navy would handle the space fighting.

This would mean that the water navy would be a branch of the Army and their general rank would be called General der Flottille rather than Admiral.