Rampolla becomes Pope
- Thread starter Tom_B
- Start date
I can see Pope Leo XIV put labor issues back on the agenda, heavily promote missionary work in Africa and Asia, and initiate oecumenical talks with the Anglican and Orthodox churches.
His succession as Primate of Belgium could prove thorny. Mercier was hated by Flamingant vicars and bishops since he didn't know their language, while Flemings form the bulk of Catholics in Belgium. He also opposed the "Flemishicization" of education in French education in Flanders.
In 1920, Van Roey, who was a good compromise as a moderate Fleming, was probably too young to become Archbishop of Mechlin-Brussels.
His succession as Primate of Belgium could prove thorny. Mercier was hated by Flamingant vicars and bishops since he didn't know their language, while Flemings form the bulk of Catholics in Belgium. He also opposed the "Flemishicization" of education in French education in Flanders.
In 1920, Van Roey, who was a good compromise as a moderate Fleming, was probably too young to become Archbishop of Mechlin-Brussels.
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benedict XVII said:
Gibbons was proLabor and John Ireland of St. Paul was more so. So Innocent never took Labor issues off the agenda but merely assigned them an intermediate priority for a while augmenting them with other concerns..
If you have any more ideas of a replacement I'd be interested though he is very unlikely to be Leo's successor.
Tom_B said:
Would go for Amédée Crooy, Bishop of Tournai, but born in Brussels. Not too old, active in social movements. But also very staunch defender of the Catholic school system. Couldn't find anything regarding his knowledge of Dutch, which would be the really spicy thing in this case.
Pope Leo XIV
One of the characteristics of Pope Leo XIV is he maintains that he is continuity with his predecessors--Leo, Clement, Innocent. He dispels any notion that he is renouncing either Gibbons Human Equality Movement or his view on a lay ministry. However there is an immediate emphasis of addressing issues involving labor and social justice.
Pope Leo (Mercier) is however ambivalent about the Council. Before the conclave he had supported the idea of a council but questioned its timing. This actually helped him get elected for his reservations resonated with the other Cardinals fearful of a Council. Nevertheless soon after becoming Pope he announces that he plans to go forward with the Second Vatican Council which is to begin in the spring of 1923.
Pope Leo is strongly opposed to the Fascists and Mussolini takes a strong dislike to him. Pope Leo does not get along with President Hughes as well as Innocent (Gibbons) did. He also finds the American hierarchy unimpressive but he does grow fond of Fr. Sigourney Fay (who lives a lot longer than he did OTL). One impact of Fr. Fay's influence is F. Scott Fitzgerald remains deeply Catholic and that is manifested in his novels.
Pope Leo also emphasizes missionary activity. He makes it clear that the Human Equality Movement applies to more than the United States and has implications for the colonies.
Pope Leo also begins some preliminary ecumnical discussions with both the Orthodox Churches and the Anglicans. Fr. Fay, the former Anglican is involved with the talks with the Anglicans. The Antimodernist faction is very alarmed with these discussions even though they are very preliminary.
Once the election is over President Hughes tries to brush off a modified League of Nations proposal. This draws the ire of Henry Cabot Lodge. It goes nowhere. America is rather different in the ROaring Twenties as it has no Prohibition (at least at the federal levle) and jazz is diffusing more slowly.
Also the impact of the Human Equality Movement is making it a little less frivolous. Some progressive Protestant theologians are starting to jump on the bandwagon as well.
In Oct 1922 Mussolini marches on Rome. Pope Leo denounces this vigorously. Believing the situation in Italy is too dangerous he puts the Council on indefinite hold. This reminds some people that Garibaldi was blamed for the early end of the FIrst Vatican Council.
With the council no longer imminent, Pope Leo issues the encyclical Dignitatis Humanae in Feb 1923. It deals with human rights in many aspects and is in part intended as a condemnation of Fascism. However the most controversial portion of the encyclical embraces a notion of relgious liberty which drives the 'Error has no Rights" Antimodernists crazy. It is particularly unpopular with reactionary elements in France and in a few months Archbishop Marcel Delacroix forms the Society of One Truth which accuses Pope Leo of being a heretic. After fruitless attempts at negotiation Leo will excommunicate Delacroix in Jun 1924 essentially causing the much feared schism.
However others are impressed by Pope Leo. In early 1924 CS Lewis converts to Catholicism.
One of the characteristics of Pope Leo XIV is he maintains that he is continuity with his predecessors--Leo, Clement, Innocent. He dispels any notion that he is renouncing either Gibbons Human Equality Movement or his view on a lay ministry. However there is an immediate emphasis of addressing issues involving labor and social justice.
Pope Leo (Mercier) is however ambivalent about the Council. Before the conclave he had supported the idea of a council but questioned its timing. This actually helped him get elected for his reservations resonated with the other Cardinals fearful of a Council. Nevertheless soon after becoming Pope he announces that he plans to go forward with the Second Vatican Council which is to begin in the spring of 1923.
Pope Leo is strongly opposed to the Fascists and Mussolini takes a strong dislike to him. Pope Leo does not get along with President Hughes as well as Innocent (Gibbons) did. He also finds the American hierarchy unimpressive but he does grow fond of Fr. Sigourney Fay (who lives a lot longer than he did OTL). One impact of Fr. Fay's influence is F. Scott Fitzgerald remains deeply Catholic and that is manifested in his novels.
Pope Leo also emphasizes missionary activity. He makes it clear that the Human Equality Movement applies to more than the United States and has implications for the colonies.
Pope Leo also begins some preliminary ecumnical discussions with both the Orthodox Churches and the Anglicans. Fr. Fay, the former Anglican is involved with the talks with the Anglicans. The Antimodernist faction is very alarmed with these discussions even though they are very preliminary.
Once the election is over President Hughes tries to brush off a modified League of Nations proposal. This draws the ire of Henry Cabot Lodge. It goes nowhere. America is rather different in the ROaring Twenties as it has no Prohibition (at least at the federal levle) and jazz is diffusing more slowly.
Also the impact of the Human Equality Movement is making it a little less frivolous. Some progressive Protestant theologians are starting to jump on the bandwagon as well.
In Oct 1922 Mussolini marches on Rome. Pope Leo denounces this vigorously. Believing the situation in Italy is too dangerous he puts the Council on indefinite hold. This reminds some people that Garibaldi was blamed for the early end of the FIrst Vatican Council.
With the council no longer imminent, Pope Leo issues the encyclical Dignitatis Humanae in Feb 1923. It deals with human rights in many aspects and is in part intended as a condemnation of Fascism. However the most controversial portion of the encyclical embraces a notion of relgious liberty which drives the 'Error has no Rights" Antimodernists crazy. It is particularly unpopular with reactionary elements in France and in a few months Archbishop Marcel Delacroix forms the Society of One Truth which accuses Pope Leo of being a heretic. After fruitless attempts at negotiation Leo will excommunicate Delacroix in Jun 1924 essentially causing the much feared schism.
However others are impressed by Pope Leo. In early 1924 CS Lewis converts to Catholicism.
I imagine that Leo XIV will provide full support to Joseph Cardijn's movement "Jeunesses Ouvrières Chrétiennes" (Christian Workers' Youth). Cardijn was a young Belgian priest who managed to launch youth movement for the working class that very effectively managed to keep them away from other ideologies. His doctrine was also very much based upon human dignity and equality. The movement was recognized OTL by Pius XI in 1925, and spread to over 80 countries. Cardijn became Cardinal at the end of his life.
1) Demand for the old Mass is MUCH higher than for the official Novus Ordo Missae. Where the old Mass is offered, the churches are PACKED, with many young people. Churches that offer only the Novus Ordo Missae are closing left and right due to low demand.Max Sinister said:
2) Church attendance was strong UNTIL Vatican II. Then it started to nosedive.
3) Priests and religious did not have any trouble recruiting until after Vatican II. Now, most priests and religious are aging or elderly.
4) Conversions (of individuals, by free will) FROM Catholicism were relatively rare until after Vatican II. Now Latin America is turning Protestant in bulk.
I would REALLY like to hear your arguments about why more would leave if Vatican II had NOT happened. To me it's like arguing that a healthy young man would have had a heart attack and died if a knife hadn't been stuck into his back and he's instead bleeding to death.
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IMHO, Vatican II got a few things right and many wrong.
On the bright side, the opening to other Christian and non-Christian faiths was great, as was the recognition that Jews were not responsible for Christ's death. Opening to science and technology was also a positive trend.
On the other hand, on ethics and rituals, they got it completely inverted. The break with tradition in the rites really was like cutting a tree from its roots. It replaced a ceremony that could give a true sense of grandeur, mistery, sacredness and sacrifice by a completely bland and annoying show. Worse marketing decision of the millenium, I would say.
OTOH, by refusing to take a more balanced view on sexual ethics, esp. contraception, it made it practically impossible for Catholic couples to live according to their faith. The continued refusal to properly include women and their concerns in the Church has finally turned away those who had always been the key vectos to transmit the Gospel. And the stubborn refusal to allow priests to marry (as in the Greek Catholic church) has systematicall discouraged vocations in world where the hypocrisy with which the celibacy of priests used to be dealt with was no longer possible.
Overall, I'm pretty severe on Vatican II.
On the bright side, the opening to other Christian and non-Christian faiths was great, as was the recognition that Jews were not responsible for Christ's death. Opening to science and technology was also a positive trend.
On the other hand, on ethics and rituals, they got it completely inverted. The break with tradition in the rites really was like cutting a tree from its roots. It replaced a ceremony that could give a true sense of grandeur, mistery, sacredness and sacrifice by a completely bland and annoying show. Worse marketing decision of the millenium, I would say.
OTOH, by refusing to take a more balanced view on sexual ethics, esp. contraception, it made it practically impossible for Catholic couples to live according to their faith. The continued refusal to properly include women and their concerns in the Church has finally turned away those who had always been the key vectos to transmit the Gospel. And the stubborn refusal to allow priests to marry (as in the Greek Catholic church) has systematicall discouraged vocations in world where the hypocrisy with which the celibacy of priests used to be dealt with was no longer possible.
Overall, I'm pretty severe on Vatican II.
President Lenore Wood
In TTL President Hughes made General Lenore Wood the head of the AEF instead of Pershing. In 1924 Gen, Wood is nominated by the Republicans as their candidate with Calvin Coolidge as the VP. The Democratic convention nominates former treasury secretary William McAdoo. There is pronounced animosity between Catholics and Southerners at the convention.
Wood wins the election easily. He is not a good President, being dominated by Lodge. Gradually the Catholics who had abandoned the Democrats are having second thoughts.
Back in the Vatican, Pope Leo has rejected calls to abolish Clement's vary minor liturgical changes. He also rejects the notion that Gregorian Chant is the only proper music during Mass. He is not particularly interested in changing the liturgy but the 1925 Missal vernaculatizes the reading of the Epistle.
Meanwhile the schism created by Archbishop Delacroix has turned out to be rather small. The only prelates to join him are 2 auxiliary bishops, one in SPain and the other in Italy. Fr. DuPre visits Delacroix and is shocked by Delacroix's intense hatred of the United States.
The animoisty between Mussolini and Pope Leo increase and when the Pope dies in 1926 it is widely rumored that Il Duce had him poisoned.
In TTL President Hughes made General Lenore Wood the head of the AEF instead of Pershing. In 1924 Gen, Wood is nominated by the Republicans as their candidate with Calvin Coolidge as the VP. The Democratic convention nominates former treasury secretary William McAdoo. There is pronounced animosity between Catholics and Southerners at the convention.
Wood wins the election easily. He is not a good President, being dominated by Lodge. Gradually the Catholics who had abandoned the Democrats are having second thoughts.
Back in the Vatican, Pope Leo has rejected calls to abolish Clement's vary minor liturgical changes. He also rejects the notion that Gregorian Chant is the only proper music during Mass. He is not particularly interested in changing the liturgy but the 1925 Missal vernaculatizes the reading of the Epistle.
Meanwhile the schism created by Archbishop Delacroix has turned out to be rather small. The only prelates to join him are 2 auxiliary bishops, one in SPain and the other in Italy. Fr. DuPre visits Delacroix and is shocked by Delacroix's intense hatred of the United States.
The animoisty between Mussolini and Pope Leo increase and when the Pope dies in 1926 it is widely rumored that Il Duce had him poisoned.