Ramifications of a Napoleonic Victory

I'm walking out of this thread in protest of the ahistorical nerfing of America.
How is it ahistorical?

I'm currently attempting to extrapolate for the effects that the continuation of stronger Spanish rule in Mexico and the New World in addition to a lack of a War of 1812 would have on the nature of North American geopolitics. Without these changes in mind, the United States would necessarily be weaker relative to OTL (and the Victoria 2 game where you can steamroller EVERYTHING, essentially, without real opposition).

The War of 1812, while the outcome was ultimately a stalemate, brought about numerous changes into the United States that were absolutely crucial to its development into a Great Power. First, the British blockade (also the Embargo Act) were essential to kickstarting American manufacturing, both by transitioning the New England economy away from a heavy commercial focus and by creating an environment in which projects like the Erie canal were incentivized and finished, and local cotton-manufacturing developed. Moreover, the war exposed flaws within the American financial sector, which would lead to the chartering of the Second Bank of the United States (which would be eventually strangled by Jackson [which in my opinion falls under the same category of his decisions as the Trail of Tears, but I digress]). All of this would eventually lead to a major post-war boom.

In terms of military power, the War of 1812 was also key in moving the US military into a professional institution. Without the War of 1812, there is no Winfield Scott to emphasize the importance of military professionalism (over the then-dominant belief in the effectiveness of state militia [based on Revolutionary War romanticizations]), or a West Point to develop a professional officer corps.

Moreover, popular perceptions after 1812 resulted in the Era of Good Feelings. In many ways, the War of 1812 was essential in further unifying the nation. There's a reason why the poem "The Defense of Fort McHenry" was used as the basis of the national anthem, after all: the importance of Baltimore and New Orleans for the American psyche cannot be underestimated, and were/are essential cornerstones to the developing national identity of the United States. The failure of the Hartford convention, the decline of the Federalists, and the era that followed post-war all certainly served to strengthen the unity of the nation. Just as an indication, even prominent southern and western leaders like Calhoun ultimately ended up supporting the charter of the Second Bank of the United States (which shows how much faith was put back into the national government and in the American democratic "experiment" after the war).

The War of 1812 also saw a definitive end to British support and supply of Native Americans, and was a catastrophe for many Native American tribes (who are really the biggest losers in the whole affair). Without the War of 1812, and even assuming light support from the British, there is no reason for a stronger Native American resistance to westward encroachment to be ahistorical in any way.

If you find this ahistorical, what would you propose be the end result of a lack of 1812 and the current (projected) setup of North America? I absolutely love having constructive disagreements, and it will help me focus and explain my own reasoning for these changes (both historical and game design). And if I'm convinced, I'll go with your proposal (or compromise the two).

Note that the United States would still be able to achieve "Manifest Destiny", it just faces some more hurdles as a result. The primary goal of these changes and this specific AH path is to make the gameplay more interesting and challenging for the US from Vanilla Vicky2/AHD. Not needlessly difficult, but all the same.

No War of 1812 means American immigration keeps going to Canada more rather than West. Which means that a Texan situation is in the offing.
Really? Why would there be more immigration towards Canada instead of westwards (outside of stronger and longer-lasting resistance by Native Americans)? What was the reasoning behind going north to Canada? I understand why the immigration to Canada stemmed afterwards (the economic downturn in Canada compared to the postwar boom in the United States), but what was the original impetus that had northward migration to Canada anyways?
 
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Returning to the subject of Portuguese territories_
IOTL there was a British garrison -- and I think a British-run administration, too -- on the island of Madeira (which was legally a part of Portugal proper, rather than a colony) for a while during this period, not only because of the island's convenience as a wooding-&-watering station for ships but also to safeguard the wine supply: I'd certainly expect to see that situation established & continuing if Portugal did get partitioned, and quite possibly Britain taking some responsibility for the Azores as well.
 
Grey Wolf has a point.

I've read up on this. It seems Talleyrand(sic) convinced Napoleon to reign back his demands on Prussia in the Treaty of Tilsit. How things go for Prussia ITTL depends on what exactly Napoleon wishes to accomplish. Perhaps, he might desire a long-term alliance with Austria, so it will have to enact fewer territorial demands from it, perhaps compensating them with Prussian Silesia, and promisses of chunks of the Ottoman conquests if Napy goes through with the OTL Russian idea.

If you can get Russia to be a mostly pro-Napoleonic neutral, rather than a major anti-Napoleonic state, which would support Britain, all the better. The buisness of the Armed Neutrality of the North needs to be dealt with one way or another.

What if the PoD was earlier back in the Mysore Wars? I haven't actually played Britain too much in Victoria 2, but from my experiences, the whole "British Dominance of India" was a pretty boring affair overall (from an outside prospective), so creating a more dynamic India is a big bullet on the list because 1) its historically interesting and 2) it'd make for a more fun game experience (basically combining the two goals I'm striving for: an interesting historical scenario and a fun experience from a modded scenario for a game perspective)

Wouldn't work, I'm afraid. The latter Mysore Wars were fought because Mysore was a potential French ally, not despite it. A stronger France = Britain wanting to dominate India faster, so as to prevent French influence from potentially dislodging it. At best, you have a larger Mysore as a Princely State, and maybe looser control overall. But if Napoleon wins in Europe (which your scenario requires), expect a very firm British hand in India after the peace.

I've already discussed this in Grey Wolf's scenario, where France and Russia partition the Ottoman Empire to oblivion.
 
Wouldn't work, I'm afraid. The latter Mysore Wars were fought because Mysore was a potential French ally, not despite it. A stronger France = Britain wanting to dominate India faster, so as to prevent French influence from potentially dislodging it. At best, you have a larger Mysore as a Princely State, and maybe looser control overall. But if Napoleon wins in Europe (which your scenario requires), expect a very firm British hand in India after the peace.

I've already discussed this in Grey Wolf's scenario, where France and Russia partition the Ottoman Empire to oblivion.

I still think something is possible for France in India, but you are quite right, we can't hand waive it into existence. One advantage of writing a timeline by starting at the PoD and then developing it over the years is that you are in a sense gaming it out, and the internal mechanics of that game/timeline CAN bring about a logic of their own.

After all, a Napoleonic victory is not going to bring about eternal peace and tranquility and you may well get violent upheavals etc that powers can take advantage of, somewhat perhaps to their own surprise.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
So what happens with Italy? I've always found what Napoleon did in the penninsula really weird.

In his memoirs, he recognizes his mistakes and makes evident his desires for a sort of European Commonwealth; in case of victory, would he or his immediate successors decide to go tuis highly idealistic route, and for example help in the unification of Germany and Italy?
 
The moment you call it Napoleonic Victory,it must be a victory over its enemy England,otherwise itis not a victory at all.Anything else is just a discussion...
 
So what happens with Italy? I've always found what Napoleon did in the penninsula really weird.

In his memoirs, he recognizes his mistakes and makes evident his desires for a sort of European Commonwealth; in case of victory, would he or his immediate successors decide to go tuis highly idealistic route, and for example help in the unification of Germany and Italy?

As to Italy (Considering timing), wouldn't you still have Beauharnais in the North as nappy's ( SHOULD HE DIE OF COURSE TO ALLOW FOR THIS negotiated settlement to take place) successor in the Kdm of Italy. and either Joseph or Murat IN Naples.

If the former, then he is in good position to give that back to the Bourbons of Naples for Peace, and if then it is probably before the the entire partition plan for Portugal and the Parma line is in Etruria. The peninsula War avoided.

The Hapsburgs will have to be compensated though for the italian losses. PRUSSIA HONESTLY DOESN'T REALLY COUNT...ITS OF SHADOW OF ITS FORMER MID CENTURY SELF. Reliant on Russia for the most part.

I have always got the sense that Joseph would have made a good Administrative Emporer for France, with far more diplomatic finesse whether he will utilize Tallyrand is another matter. Just put a capable Marshal incharge of the War ministries who is loyal to the Empire...or more importantly... general first, politician second.
 
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