Railways in TL 191

Hello all, for a good while now I've been pondering how the events of Turtledove's 191 timeline would affect the development of Rail transport in North America. Actually I've been wondering how rail would develop in mant TLs, but lets eat one elaphant at a time.

To begin with, in'How few remain' theres mention of an Alt Transcontinental Railroad, that was basically done to prevent further succesion in the west of the USA. Basically it would most likely have been a rush job and thus even more shoody and corrupt than in OTL. Its also confirmed that the Union Pacific is still a functioning company in TL191, Theres no mention of the Railroads to the North but I imagine they would almost cetainally have to deal with the severed links to the south, maybe an earlier Penn Central, I... oh I just made myself sad. Of course the big one to watch would be rail development in the CSA, Christain Whoolmar in his books 'Engines of War' and 'the Great Railway revolution' makes it clear that the lack of trunk route between major cities in the CSA and centralized control of the Railroads, whilst not costing the south the civil war, did not help matters. So that would be a priority in the immediate postwar period as would the general upgrading of the Network, would US manufactures be willing to sell locomotives to CS roads?

The major area of interest for me is the CSA transcontinental across Sonora and Chihuahua, would it be a purely military road? what and where could it serve? would it be run by independent companies or would the CS government hold it from the outset?

Also related I would like at some point to build a H0 scale model of a Jake Featherston Presidential train, I haven't read that far ahead yet, but I might butcher an 'Amerika' model.

Please let me know your thoughts.
Luath.
 
Now I would imagine the US transcontinetal railroad of TL-191 would be done for the same reasons in OTL. The Pacific Railroad Act was signed into law July 1st 1862, two months and a few days before TL-191 diverges from OTL. Now, it is possible that the Railroad act of 1863 added more government aid to the project, but Mark Twain comments somewhere that the post-war USA was stuck in the economic doldrums for years. That would lead me to believe that the railroad was constructed with only the funds made avalible by the act of 1862.
For its part though, the railroad was a bit of a rush job. The Central Pacific and Union Pacific began laying track in 1863. The railroad was completed on May 10th 1869, and both railroads did everything in there power to lay more rails, as for every mile of track they recived government bonds and land grants. Now in TL-191 the Central Pacific is still going to face the same labor shortage issues it had while working east, but with the lower causality numbers from a shorter civil war, it is possible that the Union Pacific was able to lay more track and meet the Central Pacific further west.
Long story short, I do not see much change for the original transcontinental railroad in either world.

would US manufactures be willing to sell locomotives to CS roads?

Gladly, they would have to make up for shortfalls in US sales in the post war period. Baldwin, Cooke, and the others of the time would sell to who they had to to stay in busniess.
 
Thanks Pieman, Would the CS roads model themselves on British signalling and operational patterns? Would US roads be reformed on German lines?
 
Thanks Pieman, Would the CS roads model themselves on British signalling and operational patterns? Would US roads be reformed on German lines?
No, I believe CS roads would be much like the USA in OTL. What may be interesting in regards to roads in the CSA is a large scale broad gauge (Five foot) network. The Western & Atlantic for example was a a five foot gauge railorad, and was not regauged until 1886. So what could be an interesting development is the Confederacy could have a dual gauge netwrok. The upper south using the same gauge as the USA, while the deep south using a broad five foot guage. Otherwise it should look like American lines.

The US... I could see them being Prussinized to an extent, but you are still looking at a distinctly American looking system. The biggest change I could see would be them being nationalized under Sinclar, and then they would look more like British Rail.
 
No, I believe CS roads would be much like the USA in OTL. What may be interesting in regards to roads in the CSA is a large scale broad gauge (Five foot) network. The Western & Atlantic for example was a a five foot gauge railorad, and was not regauged until 1886. So what could be an interesting development is the Confederacy could have a dual gauge netwrok. The upper south using the same gauge as the USA, while the deep south using a broad five foot guage. Otherwise it should look like American lines.

The US... I could see them being Prussinized to an extent, but you are still looking at a distinctly American looking system. The biggest change I could see would be them being nationalized under Sinclar, and then they would look more like British Rail.

Not sure about dual gauge, it has a habit a causing problems, if the CSA wanted to do trade with the USA then the gauge would likely remain standard, since a 4ft 81/2in car can travel on 5ft gauge, but not the other way around. However from a military perspective 5ft makes sense. Do you have any idea what railroads in the south could benefit the most?
 
Not sure about dual gauge, it has a habit a causing problems, if the CSA wanted to do trade with the USA then the gauge would likely remain standard, since a 4ft 81/2in car can travel on 5ft gauge, but not the other way around. However from a military perspective 5ft makes sense. Do you have any idea what railroads in the south could benefit the most?

Two gauges in the Confederacy would not be much of a problem. At presant, both Spain and Russia use a broad gauge track but trade is not hindered by this. Australia also used multipul track gauges for decades, effots to standerdize the system really only began in the post-war era. What you would see would be transfer yards throughout the south if the upper and deep south have different guages.

As for which roads would benefit, not a clue.
 
Well, you do have some major financial issues associated with the Central Pacific that are going to crop up immediately after finishing the central route. OTL the company more or less survived by building the Southern Pacific, and while the California bits of that probably happen the southern transcontinental is a non starter. They might strike north, but that really seems less likely to save than ruin the company. My guess is that the CP ends up building much of its west coast network, and gets absorbed into the UP by the time we start seeing the northern transcontinental finished.

Otherwise the major north south roads are going to operate quite differently, but for the most part things will look as OTL IMO. Illinois Central and other north south lines out of Chicago are probably going to be more like Granger lines with connections to the south than trunk routes, but the corridors themselves aren't going to change much. There will of course be a Confederate transcontinental built immediately after the Second Mexican War (assuming it didn't already exist functionally), imo this (in combination with the lack of an SP transcontinental) is probably the biggest change to the structure of the overall network.

How the southern lines consolidate is an interesting question, but without the destruction of OTL's war I'd think we can expect to see largely disconnected and state focused lines remain the norm for some time to come. I'd think that something resembling OTL's Southern Railway probably by far dominates, but there would probably be a separate and competing western company of some sort and a LOT of quite small secondaries that survive much longer than OTL.
 
Hi guys, those alt Granger roads would make for interesting models, as for the Confederate transcontinental is Dallas to Hermosillo via Austin a viable route? I'm also interested as to how the rail situation in fCanada would develop post 1917, would they become largely state affairs?

Also any ideas about Featherston's Presidential train would be a appreciated.
 
The Canadian question is actually pretty interesting, but I don't have any good answers. I see no particular reason things would be all that different (even less so than in the states) pre war, but the American conquest happens before CN is formed. There were already some pretty significant hints at public ownership with the Grand Trunk Pacific and National Transcontinental, but how that works out in a conquered territory with two basically bankrupt but brand new trans continentals covering mostly the same territory I really don't know.

There are some hints that TTL's US is more open to nationalization than ours, and I have to assume that the USRA probably existed through much of the war, so between the finances and occupation I have to assume that some combination of the USRA and army occupation run things in the short term, but longer range I don't know. CN took a long time to get itself profitable, and that depended on both mass abandonment of duplicate mainline running and the countries growth; abandonment may be possible (especially where, as in much of BC, you've got the Canadian Northern running directly beside the Grand Trunk) but the occupation and insurrection seem pretty certain to reduce growth and harm the economy.

If I had to guess I suspect CP eventually gets handed back to it's owners as the rest of the US system (maybe with something to ensure American control of course) but that the Grand Trunk and Canadian Northern are more or less unsalvagable in their previous forms but too essential to occupation to risk totally. CN as OTL under the auspices of occupation and the USRA and with authorial hints of an early Conrail seems like a real possibility, though so is handing the companies back too early and actually getting an era of three all but bankrupt Canadian roads struggling along on whatever they can scrounge from government until someone comes up with a long term solution. This option of course leaves a very distinct possibility that the larger American lines end up dominating in Canada long term.

On another note entirely, it occurs to me that James J. Hill's life might come out VERY differently with the increased hostility between Canada and the US. He moved to the States early enough it might be safe to assume it doesn't hurt him, but if it well could. Reducing Hills fortune, influence or outright removing him from the picture would make the northern American lines very different, and if the result is Hill operating in Canada instead of the US things could be very different on the transcontinentals there as well.

Hi guys, those alt Granger roads would make for interesting models, as for the Confederate transcontinental is Dallas to Hermosillo via Austin a viable route?

TBH I'm not so sure they are that interesting. I'd guess you'd see mostly the same names as OTL just operating on a smaller scale and a lot shakier financially.

As for the Transcon, Austin to Hermosillo seems the obvious choice, probably by way of Chihuahua (much rougher terrain west of Chihuahua than going further north, but OTOH it also keeps the line away from the border, so I'd think they would go for the more secure route that actually hits some population). I'm not so sure about where the starting point would be though, Dallas, Houston and Oklahoma City all seem real possibilities. If I were to guess I'd the line would be envisioned for tradition's sake, shortness and reduction of length as stating in New Orleans and effectively being built west from Houston, but with connection to Dallas and Oklahoma being built shortly thereafter. A lot also depends on what kind of network exists in Texas before the 1880s, which I don't really have much of a handle on OTL, let alone after the wars.

Also any ideas about Featherston's Presidential train would be a appreciated.

Probably along the lines of an archetypal interwar diesel streamliner all things considered (unless he uses an existing presidential car, which seems somewhat more likely really).
 
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Also any ideas about Featherston's Presidential train would be a appreciated.

Well, a locomotive along the lines of this...


383.jpg


She is Southern Railway's #1401. After her, I would think interwar era pullman cars painted to match the locomotive, heavily armored of course. This is pre-war mind you, so the anti-aircraft cars are not part of the train yet.
 
USRA probably existed through much of the war

Yeah, so I'd imagine the USRA locomotives would form the base for America 'Standards'?

James J. Hill's life might come out VERY differently with the increased hostility between Canada and the US

Yeah that occurred to me as well, the GN maybe be completely butterflied, still I'd hope there'd be opportunities for Hill to be an Awesome Badass elsewhere


A lot also depends on what kind of network exists in Texas before the 1880s, which I don't really have much of a handle on OTL, let alone after the wars.

According to a map in 'The great railway Revolution' most of south and west Texas is devoid of any form of rail links in 1880.

Southern Railway's #1401. /QUOTE]

Yeah, I did envisage a machine like that, only grey and with confederate flags, and the US army would symbolically blow her up at the end of GW2... Oh I made myself sad:(:(

On another thought, what about Armoured Trains? Come on, you know it'll be awesome.
 
I can see the Southern railways becoming state dominated and still multi-gauged. They were historically split between the 4.5 and the 5 with a lean to the 5 foot gauge. While I cannot see the Confederate Government passing a standard gauge laws like the USA did OTL; many southern states actually took a major roll in the developmental of their railway. Virginia for instance owned stock in every railway in the state until the crash of 73, and the state assembly had final say on mergers. So I can see states setting gauges.
That aside in Breakthoughs or Walk though Hell (I can't remember which) Jake Fetherston see tanks moving though Richmond and he figures that they came from the Richmond and Danville RR depot. So company wise the R&D is most still around, the L&N is also mentioned in the books. Regi Barlette's regiment is transported west from Richmond/Petersburg to Big Lick or Vinton (Roanoke County) which would be on OTL's Norfolk and Western which would never exist so its probably still the Atlantic Mississippi and Ohio.
 
I can see the Southern railways becoming state dominated and still multi-gauged. They were historically split between the 4.5 and the 5 with a lean to the 5 foot gauge. While I cannot see the Confederate Government passing a standard gauge laws like the USA did OTL; many southern states actually took a major roll in the developmental of their railway. Virginia for instance owned stock in every railway in the state until the crash of 73, and the state assembly had final say on mergers. So I can see states setting gauges.
That aside in Breakthoughs or Walk though Hell (I can't remember which) Jake Fetherston see tanks moving though Richmond and he figures that they came from the Richmond and Danville RR depot. So company wise the R&D is most still around, the L&N is also mentioned in the books. Regi Barlette's regiment is transported west from Richmond/Petersburg to Big Lick or Vinton (Roanoke County) which would be on OTL's Norfolk and Western which would never exist so its probably still the Atlantic Mississippi and Ohio.

In general what you say makes sense, but I would be careful making assertions about the company based on the name of a particular depot; there are certainly plenty of stations that kept the name of the company that built them long after it ceased to exist.
 
Here's a map of the Confederate railroads (apart from Texas, which only had a few scattered lone lines) in 1861. I know it's missing You'll note the only 4'8.5" was in North Carolina and Virginia, and even there the Richmond and Danville was 5'. Once the Piedmont Railroad connecting Danville to Greensboro was built during the war (completed after the POD, though I think it was started before), North Carolina was a huge bottleneck because everything needed to be reloaded twice at Charlotte and Danville. There was constant talk of changing it to 5' gauge, but the North Carolina Railroad (and the Western North Carolina Railroad, a spur west from Salisbury which for some reason isn't on the map here) kept protesting. They managed to stave it off until (I think) late 1864, and even then it was only redone from Charlotte to Salisbury.
Confederate_Railroad_Map-1024x785.jpg
 
If you're really talking about the TL-191 series then I think it would almost certainly have been converted to 5' gauge for the whole nation because they would be adopting a defensive strategy.

However TL-191 is not what would have actually happened in a Confederate victory and it is less ceertain what they would have chosen if they had actually seceeded because I doubt that fear of a Northern invasion would have been quite as large as it was in that series. I suspect the 5' still would have won out in every state but Virginia because it would have encouraged trade and industry within the South and the break of gauge would have given railroads a chance to more easily inspect carriages for runaway slaves. And by the way, it would make sense that further westward expansion into Texas and Arkansas would have been 5' track and there might even have been such a track continuing through the USA to the west coast.
 
Honestly it would be pretty much a moot point in a realistic Confederacy, there would be no funds available for a conversion to standard gauge at any point in the foreseeable future.
 
Honestly it would be pretty much a moot point in a realistic Confederacy, there would be no funds available for a conversion to standard gauge at any point in the foreseeable future.

Well potentially the biggest change in TL191 is that immediatly after the conclusion of the Civil war OTL there was a huge surge in investment from mostly British investors. If that dosen't happen or the money goes to the CSA there would definatly be less money to bankroll viarious projects.
 

Flubber

Banned
As interesting as the technical discussion regarding gauges and other issues is - and I do find it interesting - I believe railways in the US will be under quasi-military control much like railways in Wilhelmine Germany were.

Decisions regarding track routes, freight capacities, construction methods, location and presence of sidings and marshaling yards, and the all rest will be made with input from and final say by the military.
 
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