Railroad thread

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

-We have already been over why you can't have deregulation and subsidies in the same bill. That's just a giveaway from the taxpayers to the railroads. The 1920s Republican Party is also not going to be proposing subsidies for anything. What you could have are the Republicans proposing deregulation, and the Democrats in response calling that a return to the Gilded Age and Robber Barons in response, and offering subsidization and "fair rates" as part of their platform in response. Service standards might be what the AAR offers to allow less regulation and more mergers.

That's proabably the better idea honestly.

-Right after WWI is a bit early to have that conversation... have it laid out as Coolidge begins his term, and likely as a part of a larger deregulation bill.

Good idea. Though the question now is what to do until 1923.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

Some more possibilities I see for early ITTL:

- The Southern electrifies its Rathole Division. Initially being like the Milwaukee Road, but later being upgraded.
- Baltimore & Ohio builds its Tribeca Station in New York, much like in my original TL.
- With the formation of Erie Lackawanna, Lehigh Valley finds possibly partners like NYC or PRR.

 

[WaterproofPotatoes]

Some more possibilities I see for early ITTL:

- The Southern electrifies its Rathole Division. Initially being like the Milwaukee Road, but later being upgraded.
- Baltimore & Ohio builds its Tribeca Station in New York, much like in my original TL.
- With the formation of Erie Lackawanna, Lehigh Valley finds possibly partners like NYC or PRR.

These are all good ideas, but you're too "zoomed in" on the map. The Rathole Division makes up 336 of the route miles in the USA. There are hundreds of thousands. If you don't "zoom out" and plot out how you want your system to look, then it won't come together. Fill in the details after.

 

[WaterproofPotatoes]

@Andrew Boyd

To make it more manageable, let's just consider the rail network between 1918 and 1941 for now. Shape the system, and then once that comes into place, we can worry about the rest after.

I would also start another thread in Writer's Forum for your Disney/pop culture stuff- that way, Walt Disney's mom won't derail the discussion.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

I would also start another thread in Writer's Forum for your Disney/pop culture stuff- that way, Walt Disney's mom won't derail the discussion.

Excellent idea.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

1930-1941
- Railroads are hit hard by the Depression, which leads to FDR subsidizing the railroads in exchange for keeping standards.
- As it becomes more likely war will come in Europe later in the 30s, FDR mandates mass upgrading of rail transport and trolly lines like Pacific Electric. Knowing that the inevitable war will cost much gas and rubber.

 

[SsgtC]

1930-1941
- Railroads are hit hard by the Depression, which leads to FDR subsidizing the railroads in exchange for keeping standards.
- As it becomes more likely war will come in Europe later in the 30s, FDR mandates mass upgrading of rail transport and trolly lines like Pacific Electric. Knowing that the inevitable war will cost much gas and rubber.

I can almost see the upgrades as a TVA-like work project to get people back to work. I can't see subsides at all. We were broke. And the era of the Robber Barons was still in living memory. Any politician that gave taxpayer dollars to the railroads would quickly find himself out of office

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

work

Precisely.

 

[isayyo2]

How about FDR proposing public takeovers of the various private mass transit companies and then upgrading them as civil works projects?

 

[WaterproofPotatoes]

How about FDR proposing public takeovers of the various private mass transit companies and then upgrading them as civil works projects?

I could only see that being done for bankrupt companies, or it would provide the impetus for calling the New Deal "A hammer and sickle wrapped in the Stars and Stripes!"

 

[isayyo2]

I could only see that being done for bankrupt companies, or it would provide the impetus for calling the New Deal "A hammer and sickle wrapped in the Stars and Stripes!"

Exactly, that was my fear too

 

[WaterproofPotatoes]

I can almost see the upgrades as a TVA-like work project to get people back to work. I can't see subsides at all. We were broke. And the era of the Robber Barons was still in living memory. Any politician that gave taxpayer dollars to the railroads would quickly find himself out of office

Given how bleak things were, I'm not even sure that would pass- ultimately, it would be public sweat and treasure for what in the long term amounts to private benefit. I could see something like bridges where there is a road deck and a rail deck, or parallel tunnels being a possibility.

The Depression was not a great time for the railroads either- traffic was way down and there was even one year (1930 or 31 IIRC) where none of the major roads ordered new locomotives.

What I can see happening TTL is that the relaxed Coolidge-era regulations and enhanced ability to set rates leading to a wave of consolidation and mergers. The bigger roads can under-price their smaller competition until the latter go bankrupt or go looking for a buyout, and then the bigger roads buy them for pennies on the dollar and rip up all but the most valuable assets.


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The problem with this TL structure, @Andrew Boyd, is that it almost inevitably becomes a history of business TL, and that's not something you want to write.

Maybe you want something a bit more free-form, like a "Top Trains/ Railroads That Never Existed" thread?

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

Maybe you want something a bit more free-form, like a "Top Trains/ Railroads That Never Existed" thread?

Possibly, I already have several of those.

I also was thinking of some alternate war scenarios too.

 

[WaterproofPotatoes]

The thing is though, there's nothing wrong with realizing that the TL you thought you wanted isn't what you want to do after all.

You don't want to write a big picture view of the rail system as a whole, and you seem to be having a lot of trouble with the business and regulatory aspects. Keep in mind, your TL ultimately fell apart because thete was no way to make the Santa Fe-Frisco merger you wanted fit.

Instead, what you do enjoy are close-up looks at various lines, and questions like what if X road instead of Y road bought Line Z, or C road electrified between A and B.

Why not just make a thread of railroad vignettes? Since each update is discrete they don't have to be in chronological order or even work with each other. I honestly think you would enjoy that more.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

Why not just make a thread of railroad vignettes? Since each update is discrete they don't have to be in chronological order or even work with each other. I honestly think you would enjoy that more.

Ditto. Not to mention contributing to other TLs for the time being.

Nonetheless, why not keep using this thread so if I do try another TL, I can use ideas from here.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

Hell. May as well re-title this so it's one where we can all bounce around ideas.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

First off, here are some ideas for some alternate WW2 Theaters:

The Iberian Theater
- Franco rises to power earlier than OTL. Wether it be through legitimate means or Civil War.
- Franco eventually allies with Hitler and Mussolini. Which makes France start improving its defenses more urgently.
- One of Spain's first tasks is to invade and take over Portugal. Although Commonwealth and Portuguese troops foresaw the event, they are still beaten badly.
- Come the Invasion of France, Spain attacks from the south, and quickly takes Toulouse.
- Andora is also swept up by Spain.
- Eventually, the Invasion of Italy is butterflied in favor of invading Spain. By this time, Catalonian, Basque, and Portuguese rebels have joined the fight.
- Spain is eventually the first Axis Power to fall ITTL.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

Going to railroads again, here are some ideas I had for tracks used by my TL's Amtrak. Which would here serve more as JR East. Since in my TL, I was thinking FDR all but completely nationalizes the railroads again when they are worse off due to the Depression. Then, Reagan turns the railroads into something more akin to today's Japanese rail network in the 1980s.

Now, some host roads for Amtrak trains:

City of San Fransisco
- Empire State HSR/New York Central (New York - Buffalo)
- Amtrak Midwest (Buffalo - Chicago - St. Louis - Kansas City)
- Southern Pacific/ex-Rock Island (Kansas City - Denver)
- Denver & Rio Grande Western (Denver - Salt Lake City)
- Southern Pacific/Union Pacific (Salt Lake City - Oakland/San Fransisco)

City of San Fransisco
- Empire State HSR/New York Central (New York - Buffalo)
- Amtrak Midwest (Buffalo - Chicago - St. Louis - Kansas City)
- Southern Pacific/ex-Rock Island (Kansas City - Denver)
- Denver & Rio Grande Western (Denver - Trinidad)
- Atchison, Topeka, & Santa Fe (Trinidad - Albuquerque - Flagstaff - Phoenix)
- Southern Pacific/California HSR (Phoenix - Los Angeles)

Lone Star
- Amtrak Midwest (Chicago - St. Louis)
- Missouri Pacific (St. Louis - Poplar Bluff)
- Atchison, Topeka, & Santa Fe/ex-Firsco (Poplar Bluff - Memphis)
- Southern Pacific/ex-Rock Island (Memphis - Little Rock)
- Missouri Pacific (Little Rock - Ft.Worth/Dallas)
- Texas Central (Ft.Worth/Dallas - San Antonio)

City of New Orleans
- Amtrak Midwest (Chicago - St. Louis)
- Illinois Central (St. Louis - Memphis - Jackson)
- Amtrak Southeast (Jackson - New Orleans)

Empire Builder
- Amtrak Midwest (Chicago - Twin Cities)
- Burlington Northern/ex-Northern Pacific (Twin Cities - Seattle)

California Zephyr
- Amtrak Midwest (Chicago - Des Moines)
- Southern Pacific/ex-Rock Island (Des Moines - Denver)
- Denver & Rio Grande Western (Denver - Salt Lake City)
- Southern Pacific/Union Pacific (Salt Lake City - Oakland/San Fransisco)

The Floridian (named The Dixie Limited until 1993)
- Amtrak Midwest (Chicago - Nashville)
- Atlantic Coat Line's ex-L&N/NC&StL (Nashville - Altanta)
- Southern's ex-Georiga Pacific (Atlanta - Savannah)
- Sunshine State HSR (Savannah - Miami)

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

Any opinions my alternate WW2 theater?

 

[isayyo2]

Any opinions my alternate WW2 theater?

Honestly seems unnecessary and only creates additional death and destruction