SsgtC

Banned
We're also somehow boomeranging from a near complete replacement of rolling stock to steam locomotives hauling wells and pigs across the non-electrified parts of the PRR.
That actually kind of makes sense. If the PRR is electrifying their entire system, and they've merged with the N&W which has given them a lot of very new, very effecient steamers, I could see them keeping the steamers in service for a few years longer to cover areas that haven't yet been electrified. It's cheaper to keep a handful of steamers in service instead of buying diesels that you're not going to have a used for in a few years.
 
That actually kind of makes sense. If the PRR is electrifying their entire system, and they've merged with the N&W which has given them a lot of very new, very effecient steamers, I could see them keeping the steamers in service for a few years longer to cover areas that haven't yet been electrified. It's cheaper to keep a handful of steamers in service instead of buying diesels that you're not going to have a used for in a few years.

Ah yes, I had forgotten that!

It's actually a good fit for the steamers too- intermodal freight is typically pretty light, and one big problem steamers have is starting a heavy train, although they do well once they get it started. I was under the impression it was old M2s hauling the stack trains.

PRR's diesel purchasing was famously awful too- they seemed to manage to purchase every single unsuccessful model any manufacturer made.

@Andrew Boyd

Remember, write your TL, not JoeBonkers'.
 
What I plan on doing with my TL is what @OldNavy1988 did with his pop culture TL American Magic.

Specifically, I plan to make the rest of the TL not ASB per-se. But one that uses a fair amount of hand-wavium to allow for more ideas and creative flexibility.
 
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When I commented on the good idea of standardized rolling stock, I didn't mind either forcing companies to use standardized rolling stock forms so much as I figured the railroads would want to build up their own fleets of modern rolling stock with just enough standardization to allow them to be used with each other. Every railroad is going to have different fleets out of different needs, but what I meant there was that every railroad would have their own similar car designs and purposes.

On the ideas earlier - lots of E-units and F-units had steam generators removed for freight services later in their lives IOTL, particularly among lines that either had huge fleets of such engines (like the Pennsylvania, New York Central, Erie Lackawanna and Baltimore and Ohio) or power-short roads (Illinois Central and Rock Island). My idea there was centered on reducing the cost of maintaining hundreds of refrigeration unit generators by having power lines stretched though the trains to the locomotives, which I think has real merit as many reefers were used in block trains owing to the perishable nature of their cargo. Yes, it would require surgery on the engines themselves, but is the cost in maintaining one generator and wiring better than dozens of individual generators? The generators would have to be kept for when the cars aren't hooked to locomotives, but reducing maintenance cost certainly has a benefit.

The compressor-equipped caboose idea was largely based on the fact that having the compressors all at the front of the locomotives would reduce brake response, and having cabooses equipped with such air compressors would both provide an additional aspect of safety and improve the train's ability to apply and disengage its brakes. Unmanned mid-train helpers didn't really become common until the 1980s, and while manned helped units were common until the 1990s (I vividly remember serving on them as a BN brakeman in the 1990s), particularly in the Midwest the trains both got very long and very fast, and having additional braking abilities at the rear end I would say both has benefits from a safety aspect as well as an efficiency one.

Waterproof is correct about the extra maintenance costs involved in this, but I'd still seriously consider both of these.

Besides, the PRR could hypothetically buy the diesel replacements at a cheaper price if they come second-hand.

Maybe, but many diesels bought in the immediate post-war era ended up serving their owners into the 1970s, even the 1980s in many cases. (Some after rebuilds lasted a lot longer than that - the Santa Fe's CF7s were effectively F-unit guts with a road switcher body on it, and quite a few of them lived into the 21st Century on bigger railroads.) Second-hand units wouldn't be all that easy to find, unless the Pennsy is prepared to buy units that weren't so much loved by their owners (such as many Alco products and perhaps even oddballs like the Southern Pacific's diesel-hydraulics).

What might work here is to have the Pennsy utilize their Altoona Shops (and the N&W's Roanoke Shops too) as diesel-rebuilding centers as the steam era winds down. As you have the Pennsy ultimately electrifying most of its route miles, having them buy second-hand diesels and rebuilding them to their needs is probably considerably cheaper than buying new, particularly if you haven't got diesels for trade-in. (Bonus here: when the time comes for GE and EMD to build electrics for the newly-electrified lines, you can use the diesels as trade-ins.) This keeps the huge facilities at Altoona and Roanoke working and reduces the Pennsy's motive power cost. And as Waterproof and SsgtC commented, going with ultra-modern steam locomotives to lightweight trains is in fact fairly wise, as you can have diesels for heavier trains that the steam engines would have difficulty moving. With that in mind, you'd be better to keep the steam engines on Lines West, as they tend to be flatter and straighter than those east of Ohio.
 
When I commented on the good idea of standardized rolling stock, I didn't mind either forcing companies to use standardized rolling stock forms so much as I figured the railroads would want to build up their own fleets of modern rolling stock with just enough standardization to allow them to be used with each other. Every railroad is going to have different fleets out of different needs, but what I meant there was that every railroad would have their own similar car designs and purposes.
Good point. That probably is what I should do too. That said, there could be one company that becomes rich by building several cars to set designs.
On the ideas earlier - lots of E-units and F-units had steam generators removed for freight services later in their lives IOTL, particularly among lines that either had huge fleets of such engines (like the Pennsylvania, New York Central, Erie Lackawanna and Baltimore and Ohio) or power-short roads (Illinois Central and Rock Island). My idea there was centered on reducing the cost of maintaining hundreds of refrigeration unit generators by having power lines stretched though the trains to the locomotives, which I think has real merit as many reefers were used in block trains owing to the perishable nature of their cargo. Yes, it would require surgery on the engines themselves, but is the cost in maintaining one generator and wiring better than dozens of individual generators? The generators would have to be kept for when the cars aren't hooked to locomotives, but reducing maintenance cost certainly has a benefit.
I can definitely see that when my TL's Amtrak is formed.
The compressor-equipped caboose idea was largely based on the fact that having the compressors all at the front of the locomotives would reduce brake response, and having cabooses equipped with such air compressors would both provide an additional aspect of safety and improve the train's ability to apply and disengage its brakes. Unmanned mid-train helpers didn't really become common until the 1980s, and while manned helped units were common until the 1990s (I vividly remember serving on them as a BN brakeman in the 1990s), particularly in the Midwest the trains both got very long and very fast, and having additional braking abilities at the rear end I would say both has benefits from a safety aspect as well as an efficiency one.
Indeed. That is what I plan to do. Though if it's doable, I was thinking maybe they could also have their own ability to push trains.
 
@TheMann

The carbody units are not designed to have such surgery performed on them, however. That's why newer units are cowl units. If you're cutting into that much of the body, you're compromising the structure of the units.

Not only would these cars have to be restricted to unit trains, if you lost HEP, the whole train of perishables might be ruined, while a blown generator or dry fuel tank would just be one carload lost. Also, if they have generators anyway to avoid this scenario, then there is just another layer of redundancy that the 'roads will be loath to pay for.

As for cabooses, perhaps an additional battery pack and generators on all 4 axles in order to have enough juice to run the compressors?

@Andrew Boyd

-If you're deregulating, there will not be an Amtrak, not for a few decades at least.

-Today, freight cars in North America for the most part are built by two big companies- Greenbrier (GBLX) and Trinity Industries (TILX). Even before that, Union Tank Car (UTLX, trading as Procor in Canada; PROX) has a really interesting history- only JD Rockefeller had pockets deep enough to railroad the railroads!

-A caboose that can brake and push a train? At that point it makes more sense just to stick a locomotive on the tail end of the train.
 
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What I plan on doing with my TL is what @OldNavy1988 did with his pop culture TL American Magic.

Specifically, I plan to make the rest of the TL not ASB per-se. But one that uses a fair amount of hand-wavium to allow for more ideas and creative flexibility.

The problem here is that there are certain aspects of the railroading business that you can't just magic away. Railways are businesses, and always keep their operating ratio and ton/passenger mile costs front of mind.

The fastest train is slower than even a piston-engined airliner. Even the most spartan train is more expensive than a bus. The car is king when it comes to flexibility- the driver departs whenever they want and takes any route to a destination where there is a road, and they can stop, go and double back when they want.

Trains, however, are good at a lot of things other modes are not. How else do you get 500 TEU of containers flying across the desert at 90 mph more efficiently than trucks can do it? There's a reason why oil and ethanol unit trains in Canada run behind a big red (CP) engine rather than relying on a Red Ball Express of tank trucks. The auto industry itself moves most of its raw materials, assembled components and finished vehicles by train.

The North American freight rail system is the world standard. Yet, in Japan, where the passenger train system is the world standard, JR Freight is the sick man of the JR Group and has suffered from stagnant mode share and rising expenses.
 
Trains, however, are good at a lot of things other modes are not. How else do you get 500 TEU of containers flying across the desert at 90 mph more efficiently than trucks can do it? There's a reason why oil and ethanol unit trains in Canada run behind a big red (CP) engine rather than relying on a Red Ball Express of tank trucks. The auto industry itself moves most of its raw materials, assembled components and finished vehicles by train.

The North American freight rail system is the world standard. Yet, in Japan, where the passenger train system is the world standard, JR Freight is the sick man of the JR Group and has suffered from stagnant mode share and rising expenses.
I understand. And indeed many railroads in my TL will still be even better with freight.
 
On the toher hand, the SP could easily use this as a chance to create a St. Louis - New Orleans main line.

That is true, but they would need an interchange partner that's willing to route traffic through St Louis to interchange with them. And there's already plenty of competition from the MoPac, IC, GM&O and, to an extent, the L&N. It's possible, but debatable.

Another thing I was thinking of involves the Chicago Great Western. In my railroad encyclopedia on the CGW, I found this interesting tidbit. "[The CGW] did reasonably well during the 1950s and 1960s, but it became clear that it would have to merge to survive. As early as 1946 there had been a proposal to merge CGW with the Chicago & Eastern Illinois and Missouri-Kansas-Texas, and during the Deramus era it was generally thought that Kansas City Southern and CGW would team up. CGW investigated mergers with Rock Island, Soo Line, and Frisco, but it was with the rapidly expanding Chicago & North Western that CGW merged on July 1, 1968." Not using this to dampen your plans for it going to the MoPac, but it's still something interesting. I believe you already know about this one Andrew; I have my own timeline where the merger with the Soo Line happens, resulting in the GTW getting the Milwaukee Road.
 
I'll take a shot at a plan for the big mergers. Today, there are 5 big Class 1 US roads- CSX and NS east of the Mississippi, BNSF and UP in the west and KCS as a conduit into Mexico.

KCS I can see holding onto this niche, but as for the other Big Four:

Norfolk, Pennsylvania and Southern (NPS)
Penn(sylvania) Southern (PS)

PRR, NW, SOU plus the useful bits of EL, NKP, Wabash and other roads.

Central System (CS)
NYC, C&O, B&O, Seaboard, Boston and Maine plus the useful bits of New Haven and other roads

Union Pacific (UP)
Uncle Pete gains some weight- absorbing Burlington Northern, MoPac, MILW, and splitting parts of Rock Island and CNW with...

Southern Pacific Santa Fe (SPSF)
Pretty self-explanatory. SP, ATSF, D&RGW, and bits of the Rock and CNW.
 
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With the SPSF, would their duplicate trackage in California be forced off into the UP or sold off into smaller local roads?
 
With the SPSF, would their duplicate trackage in California be forced off into the UP or sold off into smaller local roads?

I'd presume that they'd simply consolidate routes based on whoever had the better trackage and use that routing. If Uncle Pete wants it, he can have it, for a price. I'd also imagine big short line holding companies sprouting up, like Genesee and Wyoming and RailAmerica sprouting up. You'd also see the railroads dropping owned car fleets in favour of leasing pools like Trailer Train (TTX), Railbox (RBOX) and Railgon (GONX), to get around demurrage fees just in case the 'roads don't have the good sense to drop them in the absence of ICC regs (which they eventually did after the Staggers Act anyway)

Canada would be more similar to OTL I would imagine, although CN might be capitalized if not fully privatized earlier and allowed to drop more unprofitable branch lines and the Newfoundland Railway earlier.
 
Norfolk, Pennsylvania and Southern (NPS)
Pretty self-explanatory. PRR, NW, SOU plus the useful bits of EL, NKP, Wabash and other roads. You also can't call it PNS, so there's that...

no offense but that name sucks. and Norfolk isn't needed as Andrew Boyd has said that the PRR is gonna abosorbe the NW before that point. I like the Idea but maybe Pennsylvania Southern (PS) or Just keep it as the Pennsylvania RR. Or maybe for irony sake The Penn Central (PC)
 
So diving further into my railroad encyclopedia, I was reading about the C&O and came across a section regarding one of its heads, Robert R Young, nicknamed "Railroad" Young. Young took over at the Allegheny Corporation (the holding company for the Van Sweringen Brothers) in 1937 after the brothers passed away. While he did propose a merger with the NKP and C&O in 1945, the NKP rejected the idea and the two companies went their separate ways by 1947, with the C&O taking the Pere Marquette and the NKP taking the Wheeling. That same year, the C&O became the largest stockholder on the NYC (surprisingly with only 6.4%). Young later proposed a merger between the C&O, the NYC and the Virginian. He became Chairman of the NYC in 1954 and put Alfred Perlman in place as NYC president. Unfortunately it does not say why the merger failed, but I have a feeling it had something to do with how long it took him to move to the NYC, the fact that the NYC was barely staying in the black and the fact that he committed suicide in 1958 after a massive drop in NYC stock prices.

Now a C&O-NYC merger is something that I have long pondered. But the only issue is that it would create a near monopoly in Michigan with the Michigan Central and Pere Marquette operating under the same roof. However, I have a solution. What if the Pere Marquette becomes part of the Nickle Plate instead of the C&O? That would give the C&O and NYC more leverage for a merger. And with the PRR doubling down on their ownership of the N&W and Wabash, it would look to be an obvious move to compete with them.

Now where would this leave the Nickle Plate? Well, my solution is they merge with the Erie Lackawanna. It's the only obvious choice for them and will give both railroads a boost in traffic. And they do have the potential to purchase additional lines from both the NYC and PRR if they so chose. I see all these mergers happening before 1980 if all goes well and will reduce the Northeast to a total of 4 railroads.

Now in my research I learned that the B&O had purchased a sizable interest in the Western Maryland starting in 1927 that resulted in holdings of 43%. The B&O was charged with violating Anti-Trust laws but nothing really happened and the B&O moved its shares into a nonvoting trust, even after the PRR offered to purchase their shares. During the mergers of the 1960s the WM decided to give up on independence and became part of the Chessie System. Now this might not seem like much, but it might affect your plans for the NYC merging the WM. I would suggest having the WM go to the NKP-EL, but I feel there's already too much saturation in the market so merger with the B&O is an obvious move. But it will limit the NKP in terms of where traffic is originating from.

Now with all this in place we could see a merger between the B&O and the EL in the 1980s or 1990s. Given the maps of the two railroads, the maps actually line up and work well. There will be some abandonments as they would have three mainlines running east out of Chicago that parallel each-other, assuming the NKP or EL mainline isn't abandoned by this time in favor of the other, but there aren't going to be that many, and it would be the obvious move for both of them coming from a business perspective at that time. And it would result in the number of northeast lines dropping from 4 to 3, giving us the Central Systems, the Pennsylvania & Western and the New York, Baltimore & Ohio. Three northern railroads for three southern railroads.

What do you all think?
 
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@Republic of Michigan A solid effort, but the problem there is that there is still too much duplication of trackage- East of the Mississippi really can't sustain 6 roads.

@Andrew Boyd The problem with railroads *cough*Pennsy*cough* is that in the 1950s OTL, they were like a former high-school football player, who is still 6'3", but now weighs in at 400lbs, has a steady diet of KFC, beer and candy bars, and won't stop going on about his glory days and how life is unfair. You need to trim down, get lean and mean and cut all the junk out, get back into shape, and show the new kids that you've still got it. Just shuffling some OTL lines won't help- that's like said washed up fogey changing his shirt and claiming everything is all better now.
 
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