The allies are stunned with a coordinated raid on both sides of the panama canal closing the canal for years.This raid oputs the allied supply chain at the mercy of the u-boat pacts.In the pacific,the west coast goes through another paranoid relocation of Japanese-Amercains.Slow supplies mean the gradual liberation of the pacific dragging out the war for years until the bomb is realized.
Raid on Panama canal
- Thread starter tomsong3320
- Start date
Im pretty sure this one is ASB. Both the germans and the Japanese came up with proposals to hit the canal. Adolf Gallhand taking a flight of Fw200 condors on a on a one way ticket out to the canal , before ditching in the sea for the remote possibility of a U-boat pickup. I think the Japanese wanted to send some submarines or small naval task force. Both nations decided against these schemes for good reasons , they would both be suicide missions. The US had a large amount of forces in the area , including a naval task force and land based aircraft.
Even with a full out strike, there is not much that one can actually do to dissable the canal. The lock gates on the Ocean ends (the most accessiable points) would have been very difficult to hit from the air , and due to the sheer size and sturdyness of their construction , even direct hits by large ordinance would have been unlikely to have put them out of order for any period of time. Even if they did , the might of the American industrial machine could probably have seen them repaired or replaced in a matter of weeks. The only way i can see the canal being disable on a long term basis are:
1) The ramming of a explosive filled ship into the outermost lockgates (ala, the HMS campletown during the Nazaire raid , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Nazaire_Raid )might have done enougth damage to the lock itself to have neccesitated rebuilding the whole thing , or damaging the inner gate enougth to allow a unbalenced water level.
2) Destroying the Dams that held back Gatun lake would effectively drain the centre part of the canal , and cause a massice tidal wave that would surely destroy much of the local infrastructure. However , as these targets would have been impossible to hit from the air or sea , it would have require a large scale commando raid , somthing that would not likely have succeded.
Nice try though , i had to think about it
Even with a full out strike, there is not much that one can actually do to dissable the canal. The lock gates on the Ocean ends (the most accessiable points) would have been very difficult to hit from the air , and due to the sheer size and sturdyness of their construction , even direct hits by large ordinance would have been unlikely to have put them out of order for any period of time. Even if they did , the might of the American industrial machine could probably have seen them repaired or replaced in a matter of weeks. The only way i can see the canal being disable on a long term basis are:
1) The ramming of a explosive filled ship into the outermost lockgates (ala, the HMS campletown during the Nazaire raid , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Nazaire_Raid )might have done enougth damage to the lock itself to have neccesitated rebuilding the whole thing , or damaging the inner gate enougth to allow a unbalenced water level.
2) Destroying the Dams that held back Gatun lake would effectively drain the centre part of the canal , and cause a massice tidal wave that would surely destroy much of the local infrastructure. However , as these targets would have been impossible to hit from the air or sea , it would have require a large scale commando raid , somthing that would not likely have succeded.
Nice try though , i had to think about it
Would this be possible on December 7th, 1941? Perhaps the Japanese decide to launch troop transports at it and then they jump the garrisons, but they can't hold the line and are forced to pull out after scorched Earthing the Canal?
Idk about calling this one ASB, but this at least a longshot and making it really hurt is probably close to a dealing a Royal Flush...
Idk about calling this one ASB, but this at least a longshot and making it really hurt is probably close to a dealing a Royal Flush...
David S Poepoe
Banned
Boy, that reminds me of an ATL about the Japanese using a freighter to block the entrance to Pearl Harbor before the attack on December 7th. Its only workable in hindsight and bad fiction.
Only in the same way that its possible to start a petting zoo on the moon , hugely expensive and with minimal return.
Except for the fact that, IIRC, the Canal Zone was one of the most heavily-guarded American areas in the Western Hemisphere and it was SOP to board every ship in line for the Canal. If the Japanese tried to make a run for the Canal to avoid that, they'd be blown out of the water.
This seems like it's becoming as much of a meme as Operation Seamammal.
robdab2
Banned
Panama Canal Raid ?
The easiest way to put the Canal out of operation for 2 - 3 years would be to use aircraft to torpedo several of the steel leaf gates of the Gatun Dam. There are several photos of this curved arch structure available via google search which show easy approach vectors over water deep enough for shallow water Japanese air dropped torpedoes of the type used at Pearl Harbor. The gates would be repairable in a month or two but the rainwater refill of the dam's headwaters (needed for the Canal's water supply) would take 2-3 years, depending on actual rainfall.
The problem being, of course, how to get 5-8 Japanese carrier launched Kates close enough to Gatun Dam for a surprise attack ?
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To Nietzsche and David,
I had thought that I presented a reasonable arguement for a Pearl Harbor AH blockship scenario at https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=94523&highlight=blockship+oahu As I recall it finally came down to a question of whether or not the minisubs torpedoing the USS Ward would ruin the Japanese surprise air atacks or not ?
Would you care to resume that debate ?
The easiest way to put the Canal out of operation for 2 - 3 years would be to use aircraft to torpedo several of the steel leaf gates of the Gatun Dam. There are several photos of this curved arch structure available via google search which show easy approach vectors over water deep enough for shallow water Japanese air dropped torpedoes of the type used at Pearl Harbor. The gates would be repairable in a month or two but the rainwater refill of the dam's headwaters (needed for the Canal's water supply) would take 2-3 years, depending on actual rainfall.
The problem being, of course, how to get 5-8 Japanese carrier launched Kates close enough to Gatun Dam for a surprise attack ?
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To Nietzsche and David,
I had thought that I presented a reasonable arguement for a Pearl Harbor AH blockship scenario at https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=94523&highlight=blockship+oahu As I recall it finally came down to a question of whether or not the minisubs torpedoing the USS Ward would ruin the Japanese surprise air atacks or not ?
Would you care to resume that debate ?
Covert...
Sure, every ship gets boarded...but does every ship get searched enough to find explosives? Fertilizer was still shipped long distances, IIRC. (And the crew doesn't know that the ship is a bomb...they're expendable, and will be expended; only one fanatic aboard needs to know that they are all going to die.)
Hector Bywater, a naval expert of the era, thought it was at least plausible for such an explosion to happen, so I wouldn't rule it out completely.
Sure, every ship gets boarded...but does every ship get searched enough to find explosives? Fertilizer was still shipped long distances, IIRC. (And the crew doesn't know that the ship is a bomb...they're expendable, and will be expended; only one fanatic aboard needs to know that they are all going to die.)
Hector Bywater, a naval expert of the era, thought it was at least plausible for such an explosion to happen, so I wouldn't rule it out completely.
Nietzsche
Banned
...
An aircraft carrier? In 1941? Near the Canal? Of a nation that isn't the most US-friendly? I want what you're smoking.
The best idea is a suicide run with a transport ship. Fertilizer, fuel, ect. Nice big bomb.
David S Poepoe
Banned
I do recall that debate, tho I doubt it was a reasonable argument. However, your recollections may differ from mine.
Bywater's Great Pacific War is a good read and I've got nothing against it. But earlier there was a mention of the attack on the Panama Canal occuring on December 7th, so my doubts are to why would the Japanese consider that also. Then again, the naval high command did like large complex war plans.
robdab2
Banned
Gents,
Such a Japanese effort against the Canal only makes sense if the Japanese intend to invade Oahu and wish to delay the inevitable US Atlantic Fleet counter-attack on an invested Hawaii.
Surely a small Japanese carrier group, built around the old Hosho, might sail unmolested thru international waters outside of the banned US 12 mile limit ? In peacetime.
Considering the range of the Kate and Zero (I assume here, without checking, that Hosho could indeed operate both types ?) a surprise Dec.7 attack could be flown against the Gatun Dam without too much difficulty. History shows the US defenders of Oahu to have been quite complacent wrt any attack on their island bastion so I would think the US defenders of the Panama Canal to have been even more "relaxed".
A transport ship bomb, even if not discovered by US inspection teams (which included sniffer dogs after 1935), would at best, block only one side of the paired Canal locks. Transit times would be slowed for two or three months as the wreck was cleared and the damage repaired but ship traffic would continue thru the undamaged side of the lock even while repairs were underway.
Draining Gatun Lake however, by torpedoing several of the spillway gates of the Gatun Dam will drain away the multi-year stored rainwater needed for the operation of each and every lock. The Canal would be unusable for 2- 3 years after the repairs were completed, until the rains re-filled the reservoir.
Such a Japanese effort against the Canal only makes sense if the Japanese intend to invade Oahu and wish to delay the inevitable US Atlantic Fleet counter-attack on an invested Hawaii.
Surely a small Japanese carrier group, built around the old Hosho, might sail unmolested thru international waters outside of the banned US 12 mile limit ? In peacetime.
Considering the range of the Kate and Zero (I assume here, without checking, that Hosho could indeed operate both types ?) a surprise Dec.7 attack could be flown against the Gatun Dam without too much difficulty. History shows the US defenders of Oahu to have been quite complacent wrt any attack on their island bastion so I would think the US defenders of the Panama Canal to have been even more "relaxed".
A transport ship bomb, even if not discovered by US inspection teams (which included sniffer dogs after 1935), would at best, block only one side of the paired Canal locks. Transit times would be slowed for two or three months as the wreck was cleared and the damage repaired but ship traffic would continue thru the undamaged side of the lock even while repairs were underway.
Draining Gatun Lake however, by torpedoing several of the spillway gates of the Gatun Dam will drain away the multi-year stored rainwater needed for the operation of each and every lock. The Canal would be unusable for 2- 3 years after the repairs were completed, until the rains re-filled the reservoir.
Why alaska? theres nothing there worth seizing. propeganda maybee , but nothing worth throwing men away.
Actually plausible today.
Just have a freighter loaded with Ammonium Nitrate pass through the canal and have the primer burried under all the tightly packed fertilizer.
You could even track the ship by GPS and detonate it by remote without the crew having any real knowledge about your evil plan.
There is some Hollywood movie about stopping an air attack on the Panama Canal: The planes started from a hidden airfield in the jungles of Panama.
Admittedly not very realistic in light of the strong US presence in Panama and of the aforementioned "The Great Pacific War".
About a dozen Japanese subs were equipped with a sea plane in 1941, but I doubt that these reconnaissance planes could carry a torpedo. The I400 class with its three torpedo bombers was not available in 1941.
Admittedly not very realistic in light of the strong US presence in Panama and of the aforementioned "The Great Pacific War".
About a dozen Japanese subs were equipped with a sea plane in 1941, but I doubt that these reconnaissance planes could carry a torpedo. The I400 class with its three torpedo bombers was not available in 1941.