Radical Thinking:Britain's Universal tanks and Troop Carriers in 1940s
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North Africa and the eastern front
While the British army rebuilding itself trouble was brewing in north Africa as Italy declared war on Britain leading to border skirmishes and raids cumulating in the invasion of Egypt, the 10th army was forced to withdraw but before destroying the coastal roads. Through Lieutenant-General Sir Henry Maitland Wilson the British launched the operation compass a counter offensive that pushed the Italian army right to El Agheila the MK1 universal tank was considered an over match for the Italian tanks, the success gave to the thinking and belief that Royal Tank Regiment that manoeuvre could win battle and Jock columns were very useful this would come back to bite the British when the Africa korps arrived. The 7th Armoured Division and others that halted due to worn vehicles were pulled back for refit and also to aid in Greece.
Germany responded to the successful operation by sending their own forces to aid the Italians in form of Operation Sonnenblume under the command of general Erwin Rommel. The arrival of the Germans came at bad time vest regiment was in the Greece and more were under repair, this time Germans had improved upon their own tanks to combat the MK 1 and the Valentine the panzer three now boasted 50 mm KwK 39 L/60 long barreled high velocity cannon to meet the British on equal terms, tipping the scales. The result saw a complete revision on tactics as what worked on the Italians was poor against the Africa korps. After Operation Brevity and battle axe which only two of three objectives were met it wasn't helped by an order to withdraw. The new panzer III matched the British universal tank point for point in the huge battles, the Germans frequently lured British tanks into attacks areas with 88 batteries leading to attempts to reign in tank crews into waiting for artillery support before attacking, Greece became nothing short of a very desperate fight after the Greek military was routed it most certainly had not helped that the Metaxas Line did not have the amount troops needed the commonwealth troops were numbered by a very large degree 63,000 to the gemans 565,000. The RAF was bogged down and hampered the lack of early warning and the near continuous around the clock operation took their toll. Platamon was bloody for Germans as the new Zealand forces had their own armour support in the form three MK1 and two deacons it took heavy Luftwaffe attacks to remove the stubborn forces, the commonwealth forces did a fighting withdrawal from there to Thermopylae. On April 21st it was decided to evacuate to Crete and back to Egypt, the ports of southern were soon packed with commonwealth troops. During this time many MK I universal tank had been knocked out by Luftwaffe, German 88 and worn parts, the vanguards were very useful in the numerous rear guard actions, fast evacuations of wounded being a useful counter against German motorcycle units. But ultimately Greece fell to the Germans the bulk of the commonwealth forces escaped. Be it luck or perhaps some form foresight, crete was reinforced during greece consisting of 44 aircraft a mix of hurricanes and FAA buffalo the RAF contingent provided vital aid during the Greece. The ground forces were very small just one mechanized battalion , this was reinforced by the troops coming from Greece along with a handful of vanguards and MK I .
The Germans were aware of the RAF presence on Crete and very quickly sought to take control of the island, the launched an concentrated effort to remove the one line of defence to operation mercury, the air raids and attacks were all but drained the RAF FAA buffalo were less than useful against the new ME 109F the hurricanes were too little the Luftwaffe all but took control of the air. German intelligence had failed to take notice the battalion. Major general Bernard Freyberg had all sent his troops not just to guard the airfields but also the coast however the ratio was such the airfields had more troops than the coastal areas. May 20th was the ugliest moment for the paratroopers those operational tanks had all but caused the invasion to turn on its head. German paratroop doctrine was questionable rifles and heavier weapons were dropped in separate cases this played directly into defenders hands and Troop Carriers were used to further get men too and fro that the whole operation hinged on the gamble on hill 107 near maleme. The new Zealand forces held fast as the Germans attacked the presence of the vanguards was doubled edged sword as Luftwaffe JU 87 were called upon to remove the troubling 'metal boxes', an error caused the forces to withdraw on the second night but not before they had disabled the airfield against orders from Alexandria not to.
The Germans got the hill and a ruined airfield which somewhat hampered their reinforcements, a counter attack at night had worked only for the the British to again withdraw when the Luftwaffe appeared. The tanks and vaguards on Crete were not in the best shape nothing short of complete overhaul would have helped them. The situation was dire as even a second attempt just failed, the battle saw a commando detachment led under colonel Roberts didn't turn the battle. On May 30 the British were given the order to evacuate by the time it was complete 17,000 had been lifted off and 3,000 were forced to surrender, many more would form resistance groups, crete was under German control at a price the paratroop branch had taken a beating at the same time allied planners were impressed by operation mercury but it also showed that once the enemy recovered from the surprise they wouldn't last long this key observation would play later in 1944.
Elsewhere in north Africa the battle tilted towards the axis as tobruk was put under siege.
In June 22 1941 Operation Barbarossa was initiated the invasion of the Soviet union. The German army and strategist had seen the potential of the universal tank class and from an economic standpoint it made sense one tank that can do everything was better than spending money on several types, there was still some reservations though, the troop carrier was an incentive for the Germans to increase production of their halftracks push for greater mechanization of the armour. The panzer III was chosen for the new universal class, it was up gunned with high velocity 50mm cannon again based on the experience in France and north Africa the Soviet union best and most advanced tanks the T 34 and KV 1 were in small numbers, more so the mechanized Corp had deficiencies from poor maintenance, supply to the divisions spread out by miles. The panzer III could defeat the T26 and BT 7 with ease until encounters with the KV 1 and T 34 came frequent then the numbers were reversed the 50 mm KwK 39 L/60 could penetrate the KV 1 at close range and the Germans had better tactics which allowed a 6:1 kill ratio T 34 caused even more havoc when encountered and captured tanks were all but rushed back to Germany. Stalin traded ground for time as the Soviet moved their factories to safer areas causing further delay in deliveries as such through the lend lease the A11 MK I universal tank and later the Valentine, vanguard arrived.
The Russians were suspicious that the MK I now Matilda wasn't the latest tank (it certainly didn't look the part) in combat the Russian appreciated the 6 pounder, the suspension was very reliable but disliked the high profile, the tracks snapping and engine had problems, the A14 vanguard troop carrier created intense interest, its easy construction, maintenance and high speed saw them used in a variety of ways on the eastern front the effect they had on influencing Stalin and by extension the Soviet military was immense one tank that combined the medium and heavy saw the production slowly shift from the KV 1 to T 34 and troops could be deployed in battle alongside tanks. The eastern front became a technological race between Soviet union and Germany as each came up with a better universal tank the resulting machines would filter down to north Africa.
Germany responded to the successful operation by sending their own forces to aid the Italians in form of Operation Sonnenblume under the command of general Erwin Rommel. The arrival of the Germans came at bad time vest regiment was in the Greece and more were under repair, this time Germans had improved upon their own tanks to combat the MK 1 and the Valentine the panzer three now boasted 50 mm KwK 39 L/60 long barreled high velocity cannon to meet the British on equal terms, tipping the scales. The result saw a complete revision on tactics as what worked on the Italians was poor against the Africa korps. After Operation Brevity and battle axe which only two of three objectives were met it wasn't helped by an order to withdraw. The new panzer III matched the British universal tank point for point in the huge battles, the Germans frequently lured British tanks into attacks areas with 88 batteries leading to attempts to reign in tank crews into waiting for artillery support before attacking, Greece became nothing short of a very desperate fight after the Greek military was routed it most certainly had not helped that the Metaxas Line did not have the amount troops needed the commonwealth troops were numbered by a very large degree 63,000 to the gemans 565,000. The RAF was bogged down and hampered the lack of early warning and the near continuous around the clock operation took their toll. Platamon was bloody for Germans as the new Zealand forces had their own armour support in the form three MK1 and two deacons it took heavy Luftwaffe attacks to remove the stubborn forces, the commonwealth forces did a fighting withdrawal from there to Thermopylae. On April 21st it was decided to evacuate to Crete and back to Egypt, the ports of southern were soon packed with commonwealth troops. During this time many MK I universal tank had been knocked out by Luftwaffe, German 88 and worn parts, the vanguards were very useful in the numerous rear guard actions, fast evacuations of wounded being a useful counter against German motorcycle units. But ultimately Greece fell to the Germans the bulk of the commonwealth forces escaped. Be it luck or perhaps some form foresight, crete was reinforced during greece consisting of 44 aircraft a mix of hurricanes and FAA buffalo the RAF contingent provided vital aid during the Greece. The ground forces were very small just one mechanized battalion , this was reinforced by the troops coming from Greece along with a handful of vanguards and MK I .
The Germans were aware of the RAF presence on Crete and very quickly sought to take control of the island, the launched an concentrated effort to remove the one line of defence to operation mercury, the air raids and attacks were all but drained the RAF FAA buffalo were less than useful against the new ME 109F the hurricanes were too little the Luftwaffe all but took control of the air. German intelligence had failed to take notice the battalion. Major general Bernard Freyberg had all sent his troops not just to guard the airfields but also the coast however the ratio was such the airfields had more troops than the coastal areas. May 20th was the ugliest moment for the paratroopers those operational tanks had all but caused the invasion to turn on its head. German paratroop doctrine was questionable rifles and heavier weapons were dropped in separate cases this played directly into defenders hands and Troop Carriers were used to further get men too and fro that the whole operation hinged on the gamble on hill 107 near maleme. The new Zealand forces held fast as the Germans attacked the presence of the vanguards was doubled edged sword as Luftwaffe JU 87 were called upon to remove the troubling 'metal boxes', an error caused the forces to withdraw on the second night but not before they had disabled the airfield against orders from Alexandria not to.
The Germans got the hill and a ruined airfield which somewhat hampered their reinforcements, a counter attack at night had worked only for the the British to again withdraw when the Luftwaffe appeared. The tanks and vaguards on Crete were not in the best shape nothing short of complete overhaul would have helped them. The situation was dire as even a second attempt just failed, the battle saw a commando detachment led under colonel Roberts didn't turn the battle. On May 30 the British were given the order to evacuate by the time it was complete 17,000 had been lifted off and 3,000 were forced to surrender, many more would form resistance groups, crete was under German control at a price the paratroop branch had taken a beating at the same time allied planners were impressed by operation mercury but it also showed that once the enemy recovered from the surprise they wouldn't last long this key observation would play later in 1944.
Elsewhere in north Africa the battle tilted towards the axis as tobruk was put under siege.
In June 22 1941 Operation Barbarossa was initiated the invasion of the Soviet union. The German army and strategist had seen the potential of the universal tank class and from an economic standpoint it made sense one tank that can do everything was better than spending money on several types, there was still some reservations though, the troop carrier was an incentive for the Germans to increase production of their halftracks push for greater mechanization of the armour. The panzer III was chosen for the new universal class, it was up gunned with high velocity 50mm cannon again based on the experience in France and north Africa the Soviet union best and most advanced tanks the T 34 and KV 1 were in small numbers, more so the mechanized Corp had deficiencies from poor maintenance, supply to the divisions spread out by miles. The panzer III could defeat the T26 and BT 7 with ease until encounters with the KV 1 and T 34 came frequent then the numbers were reversed the 50 mm KwK 39 L/60 could penetrate the KV 1 at close range and the Germans had better tactics which allowed a 6:1 kill ratio T 34 caused even more havoc when encountered and captured tanks were all but rushed back to Germany. Stalin traded ground for time as the Soviet moved their factories to safer areas causing further delay in deliveries as such through the lend lease the A11 MK I universal tank and later the Valentine, vanguard arrived.
The Russians were suspicious that the MK I now Matilda wasn't the latest tank (it certainly didn't look the part) in combat the Russian appreciated the 6 pounder, the suspension was very reliable but disliked the high profile, the tracks snapping and engine had problems, the A14 vanguard troop carrier created intense interest, its easy construction, maintenance and high speed saw them used in a variety of ways on the eastern front the effect they had on influencing Stalin and by extension the Soviet military was immense one tank that combined the medium and heavy saw the production slowly shift from the KV 1 to T 34 and troops could be deployed in battle alongside tanks. The eastern front became a technological race between Soviet union and Germany as each came up with a better universal tank the resulting machines would filter down to north Africa.
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tanks in the jungles
In late 1938 an experiment was done to see if tanks could move through the jungle not on roads it was done on the basis of an experiment, tank used was the A9 tank and the birch guns, the experiment showed that tanks could simply go through the jungle although coming out of the thick undergrowth as a 'colourful parade float' plans were drawn up to have an armored regiment in malaya and singapore this took time, durkirk and rebuilding slowing this. By mid 1941 the forces stood at one armoured regiment and one mechanized the RAF contingent had been expanded to include hurricane MK II though they were MK I equipped with the new engine. Lieutenant General Sir Adrian Paul Ghislain Carton de Wiart was put in charge of the commonwealth forces in November 1941.
On 7th December Japan attacked pearl harbour at the same time an air raid was launched against Singapore. Blenheim night fighters and buffalo were scrambled but this was delayed by Air Chief Marshal Robert Brooke-Popham who feared friendly fire, no blackout was imposed on Singapore due to ridiculous reasons Air Raid Precautions Headquarters was not even manned, the person in charge of the power station could even locate the person who had the key for the switch! The RAF inflicted losses on the raiding force three bombers two from the diversion one from the main force. A Catalina spotted the Japanese covoy and hastily reported it before being downed the commonwealth were alerted when Japanese landed at Kota Bharu they were faced with extreme resistance from Indian and Australian forces with RAF taking out two of the three troopships tanks were brought up from the rear all but ensured the breach would remain closed as the rest of garrisons responded to similar landings. Operation Krohcol scaled down version of the previous matador was aimed at destroying the ledge a six-mile stretch of road cut through a steep hillside, the operation was to have no delays as directed by Lieutenant General Sir Adrian Paul Ghislain Carton de Wiart the operation was modified to be like the German blitzkrieg and all but smashed the Thai police, the ledge was succefully destroyed by the first column, Laycol the second column tore apart a Japanese mechanised column, the third column destroyed a bridge this would delay the Japanese by two months. With the their landings contained or thrashed by commonwealth forces, the Japanese committed their air force to taking control of the air, post war showed that the German raider Atlantis captured a British merchant ship among the documents were the force composition of Malaya but the tanks were never recorded due to a clerical error which was taken by the Japanese, they knew about the tanks from the infiltrators and spies all this didn't prepare them for the near eight month long battle, in the air battles the hurricane, buffalo and the hudson did not fare well against the KI 43 and the Navy O once the RAF started intercepting raids, The commonwealth was dealt a severe blow with the repulse and the Prince of Wales sunk.
The Japanese forces had finally managed to break through the British forces on 27th December due to heavy bombardment resulting in the battle of Jitra which saw the attackers ejected, not deterred they launched a second amphibious landing at Penang on of intent the airstrip there in that time intelligence officer Patrick Stanley Vaughan Heenan was revealed to a spy was arrested and interrogated 'quite vigorously' revealing the extant of his actions and other spies, he was hung a week later.
The battle of Penang saw the Japanese taking heavy losses as the fought with commonwealth forces they commenced a slow withdrawal making sure that nothing would be left to the enemy heavy air attacks claimed three tanks, the chief reason commonwealth forces withdrew was the danger of being cut off from the mainland. By the second month the Japanese launched an offensive from Thailand only to stopped by MK I universal tanks and vanguards, in act of perhaps impatience used paratroopers in a night drop completely surprising the defenders this allowed the Japanese to hamper the commonwealth forces even cut off a battalion of Indian troops and destroyed them. January 1942 saw 51 hurricanes sent to Singapore corners were cut, the hurricane II B were assembled without the bulky sand filter and the armament was reduced from twelve to eight to increase performance which worked to an extent and brought 35 of the 51 ready. The Japanese forces were forced to grind their way to their targets with the the city of Kuala Lumpur and Johore being the bloodiest and heaviest combat as fixed defences saw the invasion stop for at least three months allowing for Sumatra and java to be reinforced along with H.E shells for the 15in battery which all but made life miserable for the imperial army. But alas the Japanese managed to take control of the air above resulting in bombing attacks on commonwealth forces who withdrew destroying anything of value, a commando detachment raided the Japanese rear hamstringing them further, troops were pulled back to Singapore after four months of holding back and at the same time invasions were launched at Sumatra and Java faced similar tough resistance causing the campaign to a slow grind singular battle that would end in February 1943 after Singapore had been flattened.
On 7th December Japan attacked pearl harbour at the same time an air raid was launched against Singapore. Blenheim night fighters and buffalo were scrambled but this was delayed by Air Chief Marshal Robert Brooke-Popham who feared friendly fire, no blackout was imposed on Singapore due to ridiculous reasons Air Raid Precautions Headquarters was not even manned, the person in charge of the power station could even locate the person who had the key for the switch! The RAF inflicted losses on the raiding force three bombers two from the diversion one from the main force. A Catalina spotted the Japanese covoy and hastily reported it before being downed the commonwealth were alerted when Japanese landed at Kota Bharu they were faced with extreme resistance from Indian and Australian forces with RAF taking out two of the three troopships tanks were brought up from the rear all but ensured the breach would remain closed as the rest of garrisons responded to similar landings. Operation Krohcol scaled down version of the previous matador was aimed at destroying the ledge a six-mile stretch of road cut through a steep hillside, the operation was to have no delays as directed by Lieutenant General Sir Adrian Paul Ghislain Carton de Wiart the operation was modified to be like the German blitzkrieg and all but smashed the Thai police, the ledge was succefully destroyed by the first column, Laycol the second column tore apart a Japanese mechanised column, the third column destroyed a bridge this would delay the Japanese by two months. With the their landings contained or thrashed by commonwealth forces, the Japanese committed their air force to taking control of the air, post war showed that the German raider Atlantis captured a British merchant ship among the documents were the force composition of Malaya but the tanks were never recorded due to a clerical error which was taken by the Japanese, they knew about the tanks from the infiltrators and spies all this didn't prepare them for the near eight month long battle, in the air battles the hurricane, buffalo and the hudson did not fare well against the KI 43 and the Navy O once the RAF started intercepting raids, The commonwealth was dealt a severe blow with the repulse and the Prince of Wales sunk.
The Japanese forces had finally managed to break through the British forces on 27th December due to heavy bombardment resulting in the battle of Jitra which saw the attackers ejected, not deterred they launched a second amphibious landing at Penang on of intent the airstrip there in that time intelligence officer Patrick Stanley Vaughan Heenan was revealed to a spy was arrested and interrogated 'quite vigorously' revealing the extant of his actions and other spies, he was hung a week later.
The battle of Penang saw the Japanese taking heavy losses as the fought with commonwealth forces they commenced a slow withdrawal making sure that nothing would be left to the enemy heavy air attacks claimed three tanks, the chief reason commonwealth forces withdrew was the danger of being cut off from the mainland. By the second month the Japanese launched an offensive from Thailand only to stopped by MK I universal tanks and vanguards, in act of perhaps impatience used paratroopers in a night drop completely surprising the defenders this allowed the Japanese to hamper the commonwealth forces even cut off a battalion of Indian troops and destroyed them. January 1942 saw 51 hurricanes sent to Singapore corners were cut, the hurricane II B were assembled without the bulky sand filter and the armament was reduced from twelve to eight to increase performance which worked to an extent and brought 35 of the 51 ready. The Japanese forces were forced to grind their way to their targets with the the city of Kuala Lumpur and Johore being the bloodiest and heaviest combat as fixed defences saw the invasion stop for at least three months allowing for Sumatra and java to be reinforced along with H.E shells for the 15in battery which all but made life miserable for the imperial army. But alas the Japanese managed to take control of the air above resulting in bombing attacks on commonwealth forces who withdrew destroying anything of value, a commando detachment raided the Japanese rear hamstringing them further, troops were pulled back to Singapore after four months of holding back and at the same time invasions were launched at Sumatra and Java faced similar tough resistance causing the campaign to a slow grind singular battle that would end in February 1943 after Singapore had been flattened.
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Ah the birch guns ironic that the British army never used SPG until world war 2 gave them the boot.
OTL Valentine Archer SP AT guns' driver sat centre front .... directly in line with main gun recoil. Accounts vary as to whether VA drivers remained in their seats while firing????? I certainly would not!
ATL If artillery wanted Valentine Archer based ammo carriers and personnel carriers .... at a minimum they would want to displace the driver's seat to the side, to improve access to a ground-level door in the front (seen from the driver's perspective). Would probably also want an internal wall to protect the driver when the main door was open.
Minus the gun, how many infantry could you cram into a de-frocked Archer?
Valentine Archer APC Mark II and Mark III might shift the driver to face over the engine compartment, allowing infantry to disembark from the old "front" of the vehicle.
As an aside, I have often wondered why they did not build Valentine Bishop Mark II and Mark III with 25-pounder guns. Yes, that light chassis would need recoil spades. With some clever engineering, recoil spades could also be used as bulldozer blades to dig gun pits/hull-down positions.
ATL If artillery wanted Valentine Archer based ammo carriers and personnel carriers .... at a minimum they would want to displace the driver's seat to the side, to improve access to a ground-level door in the front (seen from the driver's perspective). Would probably also want an internal wall to protect the driver when the main door was open.
Minus the gun, how many infantry could you cram into a de-frocked Archer?
Valentine Archer APC Mark II and Mark III might shift the driver to face over the engine compartment, allowing infantry to disembark from the old "front" of the vehicle.
As an aside, I have often wondered why they did not build Valentine Bishop Mark II and Mark III with 25-pounder guns. Yes, that light chassis would need recoil spades. With some clever engineering, recoil spades could also be used as bulldozer blades to dig gun pits/hull-down positions.
Glyndwr01
Banned
Crusader II, Gun Tractor Mk I[edit]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusader_tank
Crusader gun tractor
The Crusader gun tractor came out of a need for a vehicle to tow the heavy QF 17 pounder anti-tank gun. It was a Crusader tank hull with a simple boxy superstructure replacing that of the gun tank. The 14 mm thick structure protected the driver and the gun crew of six. The tractor also carried ammunition on the rear and within the crew area.
Although nearly as heavy as the gun tank, it was still capable of high speed and was officially limited to 27 mph (43 km/h). This was still hard on the towed 17 pounder guns. They were used in northwest Europe from the Normandy landings of 1944 to the end of the war in 1945.
One such unit was the 86th Anti-Tank Gun Regiment, Royal Artillery, part of XII Corps. In the 86th, the Crusader gun tractor replaced earlier Morris C8 gun tractors in two out of the four batteries. Unit veterans reported that the Crusader was popular with the crews and were often driven by former Armoured Corps drivers seconded to the Royal Artillery because of their driving experience. 86th veterans claimed that they removed the 'governors' that normally limited tank speeds. Thus adapted, they credited an empty Crusader with speeds up to 55 mph (89 km/h) and claimed to be able to outrun Military Police motorcycles, which were limited to a wartime speed of just 50 mph (80 km/h) due to low grade petrol.[citation needed]
Some vehicles were also used by battery commanders as armoured command and reconnaissance vehicles.[17]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusader_tank
Crusader gun tractor
The Crusader gun tractor came out of a need for a vehicle to tow the heavy QF 17 pounder anti-tank gun. It was a Crusader tank hull with a simple boxy superstructure replacing that of the gun tank. The 14 mm thick structure protected the driver and the gun crew of six. The tractor also carried ammunition on the rear and within the crew area.
Although nearly as heavy as the gun tank, it was still capable of high speed and was officially limited to 27 mph (43 km/h). This was still hard on the towed 17 pounder guns. They were used in northwest Europe from the Normandy landings of 1944 to the end of the war in 1945.
One such unit was the 86th Anti-Tank Gun Regiment, Royal Artillery, part of XII Corps. In the 86th, the Crusader gun tractor replaced earlier Morris C8 gun tractors in two out of the four batteries. Unit veterans reported that the Crusader was popular with the crews and were often driven by former Armoured Corps drivers seconded to the Royal Artillery because of their driving experience. 86th veterans claimed that they removed the 'governors' that normally limited tank speeds. Thus adapted, they credited an empty Crusader with speeds up to 55 mph (89 km/h) and claimed to be able to outrun Military Police motorcycles, which were limited to a wartime speed of just 50 mph (80 km/h) due to low grade petrol.[citation needed]
Some vehicles were also used by battery commanders as armoured command and reconnaissance vehicles.[17]
A Universal Tank will have to be able to replace Cruiser, Infantry and Light tank roles. Part of its benefit also extends to SPG artillery and Infantry carriers. You could make a business case that a single 25 ton type is better than a range of 3,5 and15 ton types. You could argue we don’t need excessive speed as deep penetration attacks leaving flanks exposed is fool hardy. A 6pdr armament works in infantry support and against tanks and the tank needs to be armoured against 6pdr anti tank guns. I think the original choice of Cruiser/ Infantry was down to Percy Hobart.
Quick question I'm in a bit if tiny little bind just what would the
Germans
Soviet union
US
refer to their universal tank(s)? obviously not universal tank
Germans
Soviet union
US
refer to their universal tank(s)? obviously not universal tank
Battle Tank.
I'd like to add an extra component to this.
July 1940 Vickers Tank factory.
Winston Churchill is being shown around the plant and is discussing the problems with the light tanks.
"So you have the Mk VI which is fully developed, reliable and in current production, but has ineffective armament. You also have the new Mk VII which while well armed has reliability and engine issues and will need tooling up for before it can be built. The turret for it appears to be a fine design. Is there any reason you can't put the Mk VII turret on the Mk VI? You don't know? Find out, and if it works I'll place an order for 500. We need tanks we can build now, not next year, maybe, if we work the kinks out. That goes for the armoured cars the Army wants as well."
So is born the Combat Vehicle Reconnaissance (Tracked) 1940
I'd like to add an extra component to this.
July 1940 Vickers Tank factory.
Winston Churchill is being shown around the plant and is discussing the problems with the light tanks.
"So you have the Mk VI which is fully developed, reliable and in current production, but has ineffective armament. You also have the new Mk VII which while well armed has reliability and engine issues and will need tooling up for before it can be built. The turret for it appears to be a fine design. Is there any reason you can't put the Mk VII turret on the Mk VI? You don't know? Find out, and if it works I'll place an order for 500. We need tanks we can build now, not next year, maybe, if we work the kinks out. That goes for the armoured cars the Army wants as well."
So is born the Combat Vehicle Reconnaissance (Tracked) 1940
Quick question I'm in a bit if tiny little bind just what would the
Germans
Soviet union
US
refer to their universal tank(s)? obviously not universal tank
As both the German and Soviets had Heavy Tanks then they'd probably describe a GB 'Universal' as a Medium Tank. From the other thread, tanks were about £1000 per ton in the 1940s due to mass production so this is higher in the early 30's. A 'Universal' tank in the 1930's would cost about £38,000 per unit which is quite against the Army requirements for 'cheap' but you'd get something like a PzKpfw. III Ausf. J, 50-60mm armour, 6 pdr 5 crew, the tank being 9-10ft wide not 8ft Cruiser tanks and have driver and gunner in hull.
Okay working on the next part
Quick question how viable is the short lived US t14 tank how much potential does it have with the right equipment and such?
Quick question how viable is the short lived US t14 tank how much potential does it have with the right equipment and such?
The Right equipment being the original Ford V12, rather than the V8. That could have given it Meteor levels of power, and a 17 pounder. It was just too slow in development, compared to the T1/M6 heavy, that actually was ahead of the Tiger in going from drawing board to acceptance testing.
T14 took 2 and a half years, a year longer, and didn't have M4 Sherman components to speed up development. Something went really wrong in that program.
Cryhavoc101
Donor
But what would you call it?
CEVERT...nah
CVR(T)? That should do but it would need a name?
How about......Scorpion?
(We all saw what you did)
I'm thinking "tank".Quick question I'm in a bit if tiny little bind just what would the
Germans
Soviet union
US
refer to their universal tank(s)? obviously not universal tank
AFAIK, none of them called for cruiser or infantry types. The U.S. might go for "medium tank", based on an M4 weight range; question is, would the U.S. accept a large tank for recce? Would the TO&E support it? Would shipping space be able to accomodate a change like that? Or would it force a switch to armored cars, instead?
I'd say the Red Army takes much the same attitude, without the shipping quandry.
The Germans likely keep the smaller Pz IIs & IIIs because of production limitations, because these are already built; there's a chance they're replaced with Czech manufactures (thence used for recce vehicles), & Pz III production turned over to Pz IVs--but that may be too smart for the Germans...
What are the chances of pirating an existing armored car turret? Something already in production?
No? (Not a Brit...?
)
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The M7 was a 'light' Tank at 53,000 pounds that was re-rated as 'Medium' when it was demanded that more armor and 75mm from initial version be changed.
That was almost as heavy as a Sherman(66,000), but slightly less armor(but better shaped) and faster
The M24 got the goahead instead, ready after D-Day.
But all things considered, an M18 TD with a closed top would have been a better choice for a light Scout tank. That's 40,000 pounds, actually close to the weight of the M24, and far more capable
