Radar in WW1?

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
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Deleted member 1487

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...Hrt2ay&sig=AHIEtbTV3CG0hXzylwOpIzfpxSA-eqF9qw
http://www.radarworld.org/huelsmeyer.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Huelsmeyer#Christian_Huelsmeyer

What if the German navy and merchant marine were more interested in Huelsmeyer's device, allowing for a directional and ranging device for naval forces by 1914? Historically the technology was rediscovered by independent research in the 1930's in Germany, which was not aware of the patent from 1904. When the inventors tried to patent the device the patent clerks stunned the scientists by presenting them with a patent for a nearly exact device from over 30 years prior. OTL German radar went from principle to usable device in 4 years IIRC; here lets say that a similar project with decent funding goes from a device without ranging capabilities in 1904 to usable naval weapon in 6-8 years. This means the German navy would have radar by the time 1914 rolls around.

What then happens? Do the British manage to produce something similar if the Germans are clandestinely working on it? They had Huelsmeyer's patent on file and British researchers wrote about it at the time, but abandoned it too. Are then the Germans able to fight a naval battle at greater range than the Brits, allowing them to inflict disproportionate damage? A German victory at Jutland???
 

Deleted member 1487

Nothing at all about this?
Not how it can be used against aircraft in conjunction with AA batteries?
Nothing about potential usage with artillery spotting and counter battery fire?
 
I am not an electrical engineer but my gut feeling is the tech was simply not there.

The problem is at Jutland or any other battle is it does the Germans no good. They already had better night fighting tactics and gear and were not willing to press home a battle. Sci-Fi wonder weapons mean nothing if the side that has them is just not willing to use them.

Michael
 
Assuming it is technically possible how much of an advantage would it be to U boats

(I am, however, assuming that allies would be able to locate radar transmitters)
 

MrP

Banned
I do recall this has come up before on the board, but I can't point you to the thread nor recall the points made. Rather unhelpful - sorry!
 

Deleted member 1487

I do recall this has come up before on the board, but I can't point you to the thread nor recall the points made. Rather unhelpful - sorry!
I recall that thread, but didn't think this POD came up there. However, I am just as unable to remember the name of that one, so who knows.


I am not an electrical engineer but my gut feeling is the tech was simply not there.

The problem is at Jutland or any other battle is it does the Germans no good. They already had better night fighting tactics and gear and were not willing to press home a battle. Sci-Fi wonder weapons mean nothing if the side that has them is just not willing to use them.

Michael

I'm not so sure about that. The hard part was already figured out, what was lacking was the money to refine the technology. However, I am not an electrical engineer either and I was hoping someone could conclusively confirm or deny that it was possible.

OTL the technology was refined by 1905 to find another ship out to 10km, but it lacked the ability to range it. With naval investments who knows what might have been possible. Huelsmeyer gave up after working for a couple years because he was going broke and there seemed to be little interest in his device because there was an inability to distinguish electrical and radio detection, so apparently the naval people thought he was just reinventing the wheel without realizing his technology offered a much more efficient means of detecting objects at a distance.
 
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What if the German navy and merchant marine were more interested in Huelsmeyer's device, allowing for a directional and ranging device for naval forces by 1914?


That would have required the German navy and merchant marine to be able foretell future.

Huelmeyer's first devices were neither accurate direction finders or automatic ranging devices.

One device was a "fog horn" of sorts. Vessels would constantly emit a "radar" signal while also rotating a parabolic "radar" receiver. The receiver would pick up the signals emitted by other ships with the same equipment and their positions would be indicated by where the receiver happened to be pointing.

Another device was an "electronic eye" like those found in burglar alarms but with a range of a few miles. Ships would interrupt a constant beam between an emitter and receiver indicating their movement past a fixed point.

While Huelmeyer did get a patent for range finding, the process detailed in the patent involved the operator solving a trigonometry function after positioning his receiver both vertically and horizontally towards the strongest signal much like radio direction finding works. The range again was only a few miles and, no matter how fast you are with a slide rule, the range you eventually solve for is going to be of no use because both you and your target are moving. Visual range finders work because they work immediately and don't need you to use log tables.

As Mike suggested, Huelmeyer's devices needed technology that wasn't yet available and wouldn't be available without the spurt in electronics research provided by WW1 in the 1910s and commercial radio in the 1920s. What's more, those devices didn't spark (no pun intended) any interest because they neither solved an unsolved need or did so in a superior manner.
 
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