Race relations in a Dutch South Africa
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not perfectly phrased, i meant legally limited (well officially anyways)
in the west-indies was a form of chattelslavery, while in the east-indies it was a legal form of slavery that was closer to serfdom (not good either though)
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With Durban and its harbor, Walvis Bay would still be redundant for the British. And on OTL, it was ruled from Cape Town, the typical "a colony of a colony". With a Dutch Cape, I don't see the British holding a strip of desert far away from everything.
My personal opinion: should the Dutch remain restricted to the Kaap, that is south of the Oranje River and west of the of the Great fish River, the only issue is to keep relations between the Afrikaners and the Griqua/Coloureds. I would expect the Cape Malay population to be way larger, perhaps making up over a half of the population in a number of municipalites.
The Boer Republics, if the Great Trek happens will mke deals with the Nguni peoples cleaarly defining the borders. Of what I heard in a podcast, the Nguni peoples came to Witwatersrand only after the Second Boer War
reviously the Boers tried to keep them out of their towns.
The Boer Republics, if the Great Trek happens will mke deals with the Nguni peoples cleaarly defining the borders. Of what I heard in a podcast, the Nguni peoples came to Witwatersrand only after the Second Boer War
reviously the Boers tried to keep them out of their towns.Some maps -
and of course you are still invited to join my Election Game
and of course you are still invited to join my Election Game
A interesting aspect with Dutch South Africa is that it would also have a effect on the rest of their empire (primarily Indonesia). South Africa could be a place to recruit or conscript colonial troops to use in Indonesia, while I doubt it would result in Netherlands gaining much more territory in Indonesia, it could result in a more heavy handed rule by the Dutch in Indonesia.
The VOC didn't accept people with 1/4th or more black african ancestry. They were flexible regarding asian admixture given Simon van de Stel was governor.
While its important to recognize the lines between Coloured and "white" Afrikaner having seen the DNA tests of hundreds of Afrikaners there was far, far more openness towards interracial unions than we often give to Dutch colonial SA.
I argue that by reducing the number of european settlers, making a significant amount europeans be Dutch of Luso-Sephardic Jewish descent and increasing the amount of enslaved Malagasy, free mixed race Dutch Indos, indentured Khoi and free Luso-African peoples you'll have a european identified population with greater amounts of flexibility of shared identity.
By not going beyond the Fish river you can have a Mediterranean climate Dutch nation that actively quells Xhosa to the east.
With migration north to Central Namibia.
While its important to recognize the lines between Coloured and "white" Afrikaner having seen the DNA tests of hundreds of Afrikaners there was far, far more openness towards interracial unions than we often give to Dutch colonial SA.
I argue that by reducing the number of european settlers, making a significant amount europeans be Dutch of Luso-Sephardic Jewish descent and increasing the amount of enslaved Malagasy, free mixed race Dutch Indos, indentured Khoi and free Luso-African peoples you'll have a european identified population with greater amounts of flexibility of shared identity.
By not going beyond the Fish river you can have a Mediterranean climate Dutch nation that actively quells Xhosa to the east.
With migration north to Central Namibia.
Do you think there'd be intermarriage between Whites and Coloureds in South Africa?
There was OTL, go on reddit most afrikaner results have 2-8% non-European dna.
If you reduce european women it'll be much higher.
I think with a new influx of settlers in the 19th century, you will see a increase in marriage or cohabitation relationship between White men and local women. But it really depend on the male to female ratio of the immigrants.
A good part of the reason why Afrikaner identity diverged from the Dutch is that the Dutch of the Cape had very different origins. French and German settlers were noteworthy, while non-European ancestries were also important. The different speakers of proto-Afrikaans, white and non-white, were divergrent from the Netherlands in a way that (say) the Canadiens never were from France.
Keeping South Africa Dutch will make the OTL divergences of proto-Afrikaners from Dutch standards more difficult. Will it restrain the separation entirely, especially given the very different environment of South Africa? I have my doubts.
Keeping South Africa Dutch will make the OTL divergences of proto-Afrikaners from Dutch standards more difficult. Will it restrain the separation entirely, especially given the very different environment of South Africa? I have my doubts.
I assume the huge waves of European immigration in the 19th and early 20th centuries and faster means of transportation and communication, would make they converge again. In OTL, we can argue the average Afrikaner would be closer to Europeans in the 20th century than they were previously, with their much narrower and specific own colonial Cape world.
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I mean coloured people are litreally already mixed with white Afrikaaners and slaves, so I don't quite understand what you mean
Most Coloured people have at least 1 white great grandparent. Which tells you how common intermixing was in South Africa just before Apartheid.
I think we can safely make the case that, just as the separation of Canada from France cut off Canada from potential substantial migration from France, so too did the separation f the Cape from the Netherlands reduce Dutch migration to South Africa.
There is that, true. But then, that relatively low degree of mixture, and the way in which the Coloureds were separated from white Afrikaners, is there.
The biggest proof of a split is the way in which the Coloureds were consigned under apartheid as, at best, second-class citizens. Afrikaners saw no reason to try to recruit Coloureds, people with whom they shared a language and a culture and even much ancestry, whose numbers could have bolster theirs significantly, simply because the Coloureds were not white.
I wonder whether, if the Dutch remained in charge but, as before the british, their interest and control was limited to a small littoral zone around the Cape, perhaps nascent Boers on the frontier would effectively merge with the (non-Cape) colored population of OTL, creating a racial divide between whiter, dutch-speaking Cape people, and mixed (though predominantly white in ancestry), "afrikaans-speaking" people of the hinterland?
Apparently even OTL there are significant divides between the white Afrikaners of the Cape and the white Afrikaners of the interior, divisions papered over in the 20th century so as to fight common causes. I could easily imagine a split between the "Cape Dutch", much more closely tied to the Netherlands and with a close connection to the OTL Coloureds, and their nominal coethnics who went off into the South African interior to set up their own republics
Sort of, but instead of that (relatively OTL) outcome, I was thinking of the opposite: where (except for the urban Cape Coloureds) the Cape Dutch are (and are seen as) whiter than the "Afrikaners."
There are indeed some divergence between those Cape Afrikaners, sometimes called "Queen's Afrikaners", more liberal, British-friendly, and the Boers in ZAR and OFS, more conservative and anti-British.