RAAF AH - 1G upgrade

[Riain]

Just on upgrading the 11 AH1Gs in the original order, the AH1S and others had an 1800hp engine as opposed to the 1400hp of the AH1G. If a new engine is not fitted during an update this will limit the sensor/weapon fit due to the hot temperatures Australian helicopters and fancy sensors and weapon sights, 20mm cannon, 19 tube rocket launchers and quad TOW launchers are heavy. I would also question the need for such powerful anti-material weapons in the Australian context where there aren't hundreds and thousands of tanks for the TOWs, APCs for the rockets and trucks for the 20mm, so an upgrade may only need to use the current weapons fit at night and bad weather.

However if it was decided that we needed the 20mm gun, 19 tube rockets and TOWs an upgrade would need the 1800hp engine, and I think if we were going to upgrade the Cobras we would also fit the 1800hp engine to the UH1H fleet for commonality and this would postpone the Blackhawk purchase until these re-engine UH1Hs wear out.

 

[Gunnarnz]

Good point about the weapons fit for Australian helicopters, they certainly won't be facing GSFG coming across the Fulda gap. What weapons do you see being most useful for them?

 

[Riain]

I could see a pair of twin TOW and a 7 tube rocket launchers and retaining the 7.62mm minigun, and if 19 tube rocket launchers are required for a mission the twin TOWs are removed. I doubt the 20mm gatling gun would be added because the rewards wouldn't outweigh the cost and performance penalties.

 

[Errolwi]

A fleet that small is not enough to really design your own upgrade. Given the overall buy, you might have a Bell facility. It'd actually be good to have some Vipers and Venoms now, maybe a dozen each for the Navy.

Didn't stop them trying (and failing very badly) with the SH-2G(A).

 

[Gunnarnz]

I could see a pair of twin TOW and a 7 tube rocket launchers and retaining the 7.62mm minigun, and if 19 tube rocket launchers are required for a mission the twin TOWs are removed. I doubt the 20mm gatling gun would be added because the rewards wouldn't outweigh the cost and performance penalties.

That makes sense. I was wondering if they would retain the 20mm rotary, on the basis that it'll be useful against all the likely targets. Its explosive effect would also make the rockets slightly redundant, so they might just take the TOWs and leave the rocket pods off altogether. ISTR the Australian army used Milan as their ATGM, would it be possible to use that instead of TOW?

 

[La Rouge Beret]

That makes sense. I was wondering if they would retain the 20mm rotary, on the basis that it'll be useful against all the likely targets. Its explosive effect would also make the rockets slightly redundant, so they might just take the TOWs and leave the rocket pods off altogether. ISTR the Australian army used Milan as their ATGM, would it be possible to use that instead of TOW?

Agreed on the 20 mm upgrade and, the Australian Cobras could use the Milan instead of TOW.

IIRC that is a diference of around 2 km (Milan) to approximately 4 km (TOW). Everything else being equal, I like punching holes in things from further away.

 

[Riain]

ISTR the Australian army used Milan as their ATGM, would it be possible to use that instead of TOW?

Australian Cobras could use the Milan instead of TOW.

IIUC there was no air launched MILAN variant, if Australia wanted to use MILAN from helicopters it would have to develop it from scratch.

IIRC that is a diference of around 2 km (Milan) to approximately 4 km (TOW). Everything else being equal, I like punching holes in things from further away.

You can't hide in a helicopter the way you can with a Range Rover with a detachable MILAN unit, so there is a real imperative for that extra range that the TOW gives.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Augusta-Westland setting up a facility in Australia, a bit like Eurocopter did with the Tiger and the MRH90.

In my mind there is little to choose in broad capability terms between the 2 US and 2 European attack helicopters, so if the Tiger is good enough then the Mangusta would most likely be good enough as well. Indeed the Mangusta, designed in sunny Italy, might be even better for AUstralia than the Franco-German Tiger.

If Agustawestland are in the frame then surely Apache AH1 is in the frame? No?

 

[Riain]

If Agustawestland are in the frame then surely Apache AH1 is in the frame? No?

The competition came down to the Tiger vs the Apache, but Australia was looking for an Armed Recon Helicopter rather than an attack helicopter so I guess in conjunction with other factors the Tiger won. Of course if the RAAF held the helicopters and got the AH1G in 1973 the circumstances would be very different and I imagine the results would have too.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

The competition came down to the Tiger vs the Apache, but Australia was looking for an Armed Recon Helicopter rather than an attack helicopter so I guess in conjunction with other factors the Tiger won. Of course if the RAAF held the helicopters and got the AH1G in 1973 the circumstances would be very different and I imagine the results would have too.

If only the US Army had retained the Commanche program, then that would have surely met our requirements for an Armed Recon Helicopter .

 

[Fred the Great]

The competition came down to the Tiger vs the Apache, but Australia was looking for an Armed Recon Helicopter rather than an attack helicopter so I guess in conjunction with other factors the Tiger won. Of course if the RAAF held the helicopters and got the AH1G in 1973 the circumstances would be very different and I imagine the results would have too.

It's definitely one of those where in hindsight everyone involved would love to be able to make that decision over again!

 

[Archibald]

If only the US Army had retained the Commanche program, then that would have surely met our requirements for an Armed Recon Helicopter .

The Comanche was a F-35 with a rotor. and all the issues.

 

[nebnoswal]

It's definitely one of those where in hindsight everyone involved would love to be able to make that decision over again!

So if an Apache had crashed at high range instead of the Tiger back in 1998, the ADF would of bought Apache instead, VTIC

 

[Bernard Woolley]

That's not to say sheer performance doesn't come into it, the AW101 was eliminated from the Blackhawk replacement competition early on because of poor hot weather performance.

Hmmm. Interesting because the former RAF Merlins managed fine in Iraq and Afghanistan. Unless the north end of Oz is hotter than those regions.

The Comanche was a F-35 with a rotor. and all the issues.

So expensive but game changing? Often criticised by those who don't really understand it then?

 

[Archibald]

No, just an extremely expensive boondoggle marrying too much different operational requirements under a supposedly "common and cheap" airframe.

 

[Bernard Woolley]

That's not the F-35. Pilots love it and I'm happy to take their word for it. But I'm taking this thread off-topic.

 

[Riain]

Hmmm. Interesting because the former RAF Merlins managed fine in Iraq and Afghanistan. Unless the north end of Oz is hotter than those regions.

Define fine? Were there no operating restrictions due to heat or altitude, such as limited loads or fuel?

Its been a while since I read the report and I am struggling to find it again, so I can't find the details. However, the operating environment of the ADF is hot every day for every helicopter, not part of the fleet some of the time.

Edit: found it, note 33. The hot and high was only one factor, the one I remember apparently.

https://www.anao.gov.au/work/performance-audit/multi-role-helicopter-program

 

[Just Leo]

https://www.anao.gov.au/work/performance-audit/multi-role-helicopter-program

I love the language but I don't understand it. It's like talking to Jesus. You ask Him a yes or no question and He gives you a parable about fish.

 

[Bernard Woolley]

I'm not a aware of the RAF's Merlins being restricted in any way. IIRC they took over the MERT role in Iraq from Chinooks.

 

[Riain]

I love the language but I don't understand it. It's like talking to Jesus. You ask Him a yes or no question and He gives you a parable about fish.

Its a complex subject, far more than people give credit for, especially for a foreigner who isn't very familiar with this stuff.

I'm not a aware of the RAF's Merlins being restricted in any way. IIRC they took over the MERT role in Iraq from Chinooks.

It turns out that the hot and high was the most memorable (to me) of the reasons why the EH101 was rejected from the Australian competition.