Quick TL - Alternate World War 2: Mitteleuropa vs. FRA-ITA-USSR

The USSR has the capacity to recover from B-L in two decades. I remember in the early 90s that many 'political experts' claimed that Russia would never recover as a relevant power after the collapse of the USSR...and you see.
Russia never had to pay brutal reparations to a power is the difference. OTL in 1920's or in 1990's they did not have to, while B-L was so harsh in demanding demilitarization and reparations they would still be paying reparations 2 decades later. And in this TL due to no German invasion in 1941 they are still disunited with many people raiding the USSR not to mention that the minorities that still exist in Russia and even some of its ethnic Russians would prefer Germany to the Soviets since it isn't Nazi and gives them a better standard of living, so comparing this USSR to OTL doesn't make too much sense. Even OTL Russia only is a great power because it has a nuclear deterrence and conscription, otherwise its population is aging, its economy is behind

And I don't think they would be so delusional to think that a war with USSR, in case of USSR victory, would bring the balance back to the continent - probably London will be in the dilemma of what do they prefer, German dominance or Soviet dominance.
The USSR would be forced to rely on UK aid to win and if they won, they might want soviet dominance but due to Brest-Litovsk, they'll have to settle for annexing their territories as without the UK, they would've certainly lost.
 
Yes, balance of power was a doctrine for the UK, but in this TL after 1919 there is no such balance, the CEC has achieved a blatant hegemony in the continent and UK has to live with it, so a new realistic doctrine needs to be developed.

That mean giving a damn of what happen to Europe forever and ever, very convenient for Germany...as usual; still if the CP why try an agreement with the British? If France and Italy have still some capacity London will support them economically and logistically if not, a second world war it's not necessary except for further humiliate the once time enemy

The USSR has the capacity to recover from B-L in two decades. I remember in the early 90s that many 'political experts' claimed that Russia would never recover as a relevant power after the collapse of the USSR...and you see.

Russia biggest hold on great power status it's his nuclear arsenal (things here not present), plus neither NATO or the EU were a militaristic allaince in name only but in reality something more akin to Comecon/Warsaw Pact bent on continental domination that will not like very much any soviet warmongering or military rebuilt, not considering that Russia received a lot of economic and humanitarian aid while here she need to pay reparation to Germany

France and Italy wanted a powerful ally but UK did not want to support them, so they did not resume war by themselves. When the USSR recovers, then they see a new opportunity with a different ally.

They see what? A new opportunity to be dismembered? Look at the map you have created?
Italy on the North East had a much less defensible position while Germany had a much easier way to attack, same for France and they have also lost important iron basin ang German troops had basically razed the occupied zone, plus nobody will be so stupid to not believe that the Belgium goverment will not allow at the German troops free passage.
Not considering the destruction caused by the war, the political chaos, the economic problem, how anyone in Paris or Rome can have think to have a possibility in such a war or even desire for another round? They can barely stay independent, and frankly i doubt it as Germany in this stage will dominate the entire european economy.

Frankly they will barely hold together, maybe if for some absurd reason the URSS it's extremely succesfull against Germany they will try to get concession from Berlin in exchange of neutrality, but actively think to attack megaGermany? Only if some ASB transport the Force de Frappe from OTL to them
 
Russia never had to pay brutal reparations to a power is the difference. OTL in 1920's or in 1990's they did not have to, while B-L was so harsh in demanding demilitarization and reparations they would still be paying reparations 2 decades later. And in this TL due to no German invasion in 1941 they are still disunited with many people raiding the USSR not to mention that the minorities that still exist in Russia and even some of its ethnic Russians would prefer Germany to the Soviets since it isn't Nazi and gives them a better standard of living, so comparing this USSR to OTL doesn't make too much sense. Even OTL Russia only is a great power because it has a nuclear deterrence and conscription, otherwise its population is aging, its economy is behind.

1990s Russia has no reparations to pay but have an enormous amount of debt. And it's not like it did not have serious internal problems (i.e. Chechnya). The economy there is not like USA of course, but not bad considering that 20 years ago people had to queue for hours in order to get a piece of bread. And Moscow is one of the most expensive cities in Europe, with salaries above of many of the EU Eastern (and some Western) cities.

The USSR would be forced to rely on UK aid to win and if they won, they might want soviet dominance but due to Brest-Litovsk, they'll have to settle for annexing their territories as without the UK, they would've certainly lost.

Why the UK would want to help the USSR?

That mean giving a damn of what happen to Europe forever and ever, very convenient for Germany...as usual; still if the CP why try an agreement with the British? If France and Italy have still some capacity London will support them economically and logistically if not, a second world war it's not necessary except for further humiliate the once time enemy.

Probably, but if Germany is not challenged, then the CEC would develop in a stronger and more unified entity which would be even more difficult to defeat in the future and eventually they could claim whatever part of France/Italy...it's like there is the option to die today or die tomorrow.

They see what? A new opportunity to be dismembered? Look at the map you have created?
Italy on the North East had a much less defensible position while Germany had a much easier way to attack, same for France and they have also lost important iron basin ang German troops had basically razed the occupied zone, plus nobody will be so stupid to not believe that the Belgium goverment will not allow at the German troops free passage.

Even a slim opportunity could be better than wait and see how the CEC becomes an even bigger monster and devours all they want. Imagine that CEC opts for a German 38-39 policy of 'I want this territory or War'...
 
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Why the UK would want to help the USSR?

Because they want Germany down a peg or twenty? Seem strange, but war

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Probably, but if Germany is not challenged, then the CEC would develop in a stronger and more unified entity which would be even more difficult to defeat in the future and eventually they could claim whatever part of France/Italy...it's like there is the option to die today or die tomorrow.

The CEC it's not like NATO or the EU, it's nothing more than Germany way to control his puppet states, it's already unified enough for Berlin taste as the other goverment do in totally what she said. The moment the first world war it's over it's already too late, they can already claim whatever part of France and Italy they want with all the advantages you give them, basically it's submit or die and with the economic juggernut that will be Germany plus all his dominated states there is no way out.
Frankly look very much as your first TL where a progressively weaker France and Italy continue to fight an exponentially stronger Germany while being affected by the Draka stupid virus for no good reason except the pleasure of being cumberstomped because Germany can't lose.

Even a slim opportunity could be better than wait and see how the CEC becomes an even bigger monster and devours all they want. Imagine that CEC opts for a German 38-39 policy of 'I want this territory or War'...

That's an option from the first day after the end of war in the scenario you have posted, what has changed in the postwar years? Except a collective national desire to die for France and Italy? It will be more probably that if the CP win they will just become puppet as there is no other choice. As said if you want a second world war with the allaince you posted, better not giving at Germany everything they want while the UK happily accept to be throw out of Europe for some trincket and swear to not be anymore involved due to reason.
For the nth times, look at the map you have posted and try to wear the pants of a Italian/French/Soviet General...how do you fight Germany? They more or less control Europe both directely and indirectely, the other great power are not interested to help, you have probably still not recovered by the war and you are outgunned and outnumbered in all the possible way. In this scenario any professional will simply say, that there is no hope for victory any strategies will be utterly defensive aka 'sure we will lose but you will lost a lot of men in the process' and prey every possible gods that will work.
Even if the most realistic scenario it's in the case of the CP winning, France and Italy will simply submit as there is no other choice.
 
Why the UK would want to help the USSR?
Because otherwise the continent has German domination while if they help the USSR, the USSR annexes its former land probably but wont be able to dominate the entire continent the same way.

Probably, but if Germany is not challenged, then the CEC would develop in a stronger and more unified entity which would be even more difficult to defeat in the future and eventually they could claim whatever part of France/Italy...
They're already strong enough to take as much land as they want. The Kaiserreich already got the land it wanted, if they eventually want more land they can take it anyway either way. So France will declare war on Germany on the off chance Germany would invade them later, when either way they'd lose and without proof that Germany wants more land from them?

Even a slim opportunity could be better than wait and see how the CEC becomes an even bigger monster and devours all they want. Imagine that CEC opts for a German 38-39 policy of 'I want this territory or War'...
There isn't a slim opportunity. And this isn't the same Germany as that of 38-39, they already took the territory they wanted and if they wanted more land they would already take it. Unlike Germany of 1938-1939, they already are the strongest power in Europe and control it
 
Frankly look very much as your first TL where a progressively weaker France and Italy continue to fight an exponentially stronger Germany while being affected by the Draka stupid virus for no good reason except the pleasure of being cumberstomped because Germany can't lose.

lol still angry because of that old TL?

For the nth times, look at the map you have posted and try to wear the pants of a Italian/French/Soviet General...how do you fight Germany? They more or less control Europe both directely and indirectely, the other great power are not interested to help, you have probably still not recovered by the war and you are outgunned and outnumbered in all the possible way. In this scenario any professional will simply say, that there is no hope for victory any strategies will be utterly defensive aka 'sure we will lose but you will lost a lot of men in the process' and prey every possible gods that will work.
Even if the most realistic scenario it's in the case of the CP winning, France and Italy will simply submit as there is no other choice.

So, if you were a Italian/French leader, what would you do in this scenario? Just praying for not being invaded the next month?
 
lol still angry because of that old TL?

More for your behaviour and attitude and the fact that while you keep asking advise, if someone don't tell you what you want to hear you ignore it.

So, if you were a Italian/French leader, what would you do in this scenario? Just praying for not being invaded the next month?

Sure what other choice i have? You have given Germany any possible advantage while nerfing all the opposition (and refusing to aknowledge it) so there is nothing that Italy and France even together can do, except mount a defensive strategy that will cost the greatest possible tool for the Germans...and hope it's enough. Launching a war against Mitteleuropa? it's out of the question, no resources, no will, no possibility.
As said two or three times, in case of CP victory, France and Italy will enter (by their free will due to sheer economic necessity/factor or by force) in Mitteleuropa.
 
More for your behaviour and attitude and the fact that while you keep asking advise, if someone don't tell you what you want to hear you ignore it.

Love that passive-aggressive attitude.

Sure what other choice i have? You have given Germany any possible advantage while nerfing all the opposition (and refusing to aknowledge it) so there is nothing that Italy and France even together can do, except mount a defensive strategy that will cost the greatest possible tool for the Germans...and hope it's enough. Launching a war against Mitteleuropa? it's out of the question, no resources, no will, no possibility.
As said two or three times, in case of CP victory, France and Italy will enter (by their free will due to sheer economic necessity/factor or by force) in Mitteleuropa.

So, the problem is that 'I gave' Germany too much power? I suspect that if instead this hegemony would be 'given' to the Italian Empire there would be not such complaints...
 
So, the problem is that 'I gave' Germany too much power? I suspect that if instead this hegemony would be 'given' to the Italian Empire there would be not such complaints...
The problem is not recognizing the power. The power makes them control Europe indirectly and be the dominant power, there is no way France-Italy-Russia would attack Germany because if they did, they'd lose all their sovereignty as there is not a chance they would win, so why would they attack on the off chance they'd might be attacked later? Germany already dominates the economy of Europe, a French Leader would hope to tie themselves economically to Germany that Germany wouldnt invade them, not invade them to be surely defeated
 
So, the problem is that 'I gave' Germany too much power? I suspect that if instead this hegemony would be 'given' to the Italian Empire there would be not such complaints...

There would be complaints if the defeated nations decided their only option was to attempt national suicide in fear that Italy will attack them anyways, rather than integrating themselves into Italy's economy so that it is not a possibility.
 
Love that passive-aggressive attitude.

So, the problem is that 'I gave' Germany too much power? I suspect that if instead this hegemony would be 'given' to the Italian Empire there would be not such complaints...

Yep, dejavù here we come.

But to answer at your question, it's not the fact that it's Germany but the fact that it's like a fight between Mike Tyson at his prime (Germany) and George Foreman just before his retirement after you have broken both arm and legs and cut an eye (everyone else)...but you treat it like it was more or less still a fair fight and a viable option for anyone not called Tyson
 
But to answer at your question, it's not the fact that it's Germany but the fact that it's like a fight between Mike Tyson at his prime (Germany) and George Foreman just before his retirement after you have broken both arm and legs and cut an eye (everyone else)...but you treat it like it was more or less still a fair fight and a viable option for anyone not called Tyson

Maybe there is a way to balance the fight: after 20 years and good economical shape it is predictable that people of the CEC would demand more political freedom and democracy (and possibly the abolition of all those monarchies), so an internal turmoil could happen. USSR-France-Italy may take advantage of such situation.
 
Maybe there is a way to balance the fight: after 20 years and good economical shape it is predictable that people of the CEC would demand more political freedom and democracy (and possibly the abolition of all those monarchies), so an internal turmoil could happen. USSR-France-Italy may take advantage of such situation.

It's a little more better, but the big roadblock it's always the same Italy and France will hardly be capable to remain out of the economic sphere of MegaGermany (getting France being subservient economically from them was one of Berlin top goal, so if they win), not after losing WWI...they will probably be like Hungary aka the happyest barrack in the gulag but nothing more.
Expecially with the UK washing his hand of the continent; frankly if this kind of upveal happen, the best case scenario for Italy and France will be overthrow their current puppet goverment and use the current chaos to gain independence from Germany
 
Maybe there is a way to balance the fight: after 20 years and good economical shape it is predictable that people of the CEC would demand more political freedom and democracy (and possibly the abolition of all those monarchies), so an internal turmoil could happen. USSR-France-Italy may take advantage of such situation.

I doubt that the CEC would just sit on it's hands while it notices the France-Italy-URSS Entente forming around it, they almost certainly would still be militarized enough for defense, and would likely have started preparing contingency plans as soon as they united. Internal turmoil likely would not be a turning point as most likely the various countries would focus on an external threat first. I would expect calls for democracy/political freedom to be put on hold to defend sovereignty.

It's a little more better, but the big roadblock it's always the same Italy and France will hardly be capable to remain out of the economic sphere of MegaGermany (getting France being subservient economically from them was one of Berlin top goal, so if they win), not after losing WWI...they will probably be like Hungary aka the happyest barrack in the gulag but nothing more.
Expecially with the UK washing his hand of the continent; frankly if this kind of upveal happen, the best case scenario for Italy and France will be overthrow their current puppet goverment and use the current chaos to gain independence from Germany

I am assuming that France and Italy spent all of their post-war time atleast attempting to force economic independence from Germany. Part of that would likely risk Germany or other CEC members/associates (or even the US/UK) invading to protect any interests they have if France-Italy cut off all economical ties with other countries. The other part would result in losing the Arms race as they would probably need to use a smaller economic base than the CEC to develop new weapons in addition to keeping the citizenry from revolting.
 
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