Questions on Hitler and South Africa

I was Thinking if doing a time line of what if Adolf Hitlers personna was born in south Africa to a heavily religious and nationalistic boer family rather than a Austrian one.

So here are my questions:

1) is it possible for a hitler type figure to rise up in 1930's south Africa under an even more evil nationalist party (apartheid was evil in my books)

2) is it possible for the union of south Africa to even break away from GB in the 30's and if so what are the effects of such a thing

3) is it possible for Rhodesia to join South Africa, like Austria or the Sudetenland joined Germany (if SA is at this point still a dominion)

4) could South Africa force GB into making botswanna under SA control, (especially if Rhodesia is in union with SA)

5) how would the world react if a colonial war broke out between an independent SA and Portugal
 
So, you want the Draka, under Hitler?

No their is no way in hell South Africa is going to expand outside of Southern Africa (or even take all of southern Africa)

I was just thought after reading the intro to the "great boer war" what if hitler was born in SA rather than Austria and came to power leading the boers
 
1. Not really, no, the circumstances that allowed Hitler to rise in Germany were not present in South Africa. So the fundamental idea of "nationalist autocrat seizing total power" isn't really going to happen because there is no reason to.

2. The British would never allow it to happen, the people who did support this in the 30's had almost no popular support and in the highly-ASB event that they take power they'll be playing a waiting game for the British to drop on by and restore order.

3. Given that Rhodesia was a British settler colony populated by well, Britons, and South Africa has enough issues with regards to the Afrikaner-English divide, I can't see the will being in Pretoria or London for doing it. Again, apples to oranges, you can't equivocate entirely unique circumstances in Germany to South Africa, because the corresponding issues don't exist.

4. If by "force" you mean "ask London" then yes, it's possible, the British deferred it historically, but it was entirely within their power to give it to the South Africans, the only matter is the will to do so.

5. The war even happening is pretty absurd as is, Portugal by nature does not want to rock the boat with the people whose goodwill it relies upon to keep its colonies in Africa. In the unlikely (and in a cosmic sense kind of funny) event that Portugal and South Africa get into a fight over colonies the British will stamp out any conflicts before they begin, it's an embarrassment otherwise.
 
I was Thinking if doing a time line of what if Adolf Hitlers personna was born in south Africa to a heavily religious and nationalistic boer family rather than a Austrian one.

So here are my questions:

1) is it possible for a hitler type figure to rise up in 1930's south Africa under an even more evil nationalist party (apartheid was evil in my books)

Not really. First, white South Africa is deeply split between Afrikaners and Anglos. An Afrikaner Hitler would get little support from Anglos and need all the Afrikaners. And the Anglos overwhelmingly dominated South African business.

Second, the Afrikaners were more conservative than militant. Fascism is a radical, adventurist ideology. Hitler was certainly an adventurist. Afrikaners were interested in preserving their rule where they were, which was a challenge to begin with.

2) is it possible for the union of south Africa to even break away from GB in the 30's and if so what are the effects of such a thing

With difficulty. Again, the Anglos would be opposed and the Afrikaners divided. With distinguished Afrikaners like Smuts accepting British rule or linkage (by the 1920s, Britain had no effective authority in South Africa), such a rebellion is swimming upstream. It wasn't until Britain attacked apartheid and white supremacy that South Africa bolted.

3) is it possible for Rhodesia to join South Africa, like Austria or the Sudetenland joined Germany (if SA is at this point still a dominion)

Rhodesia voted on joining South Africa in the 1920s IIRC, and it was fairly close.
4) could South Africa force GB into making botswanna under SA control, (especially if Rhodesia is in union with SA)

No - South Africa can't make Britain do anything. But South Africa can do things that Britain can't stop.

5) how would the world react if a colonial war broke out between an independent SA and Portugal

When and why? South Africa supported Portuguese colonial rule as a form of white supremacy.
 
So we are assuming that Hitler was genetically pre programmed to be a right wing racist with dictatorial instincts and dreams of territorial expansion? It doesn't matter where he was born or which culture background he grew up in.


So if Hitler were born in Paraguay instead of Austria he would affect Pararguay politics too?

If he were born in one of the many Papua New Guinea tribes he would become leader of his tribe and then collaborate with the Japanese after Pear Harbor?

Hitler being born in the Transvaal in 1889 means nothing at all. He would have no impact on South African politics. When he grew up and reached maturity South Africa was governed by former Boer war commanders and Generals. Hitler was too young to be fight in that war and he wouldn't have had the status to challenge them.
 
So we are assuming that Hitler was genetically pre programmed to be a right wing racist with dictatorial instincts and dreams of territorial expansion? It doesn't matter where he was born or which culture background he grew up in.


So if Hitler were born in Paraguay instead of Austria he would affect Pararguay politics too?

If he were born in one of the many Papua New Guinea tribes he would become leader of his tribe and then collaborate with the Japanese after Pear Harbor?

Hitler being born in the Transvaal in 1889 means nothing at all. He would have no impact on South African politics. When he grew up and reached maturity South Africa was governed by former Boer war commanders and Generals. Hitler was too young to be fight in that war and he wouldn't have had the status to challenge them.

The OP isn't hitler it's his personna or a hitler like figure
Thinking of doing a story not a hitler is the purest evil and wherever he is born he shall bring death and chaos.

SA isn't going to Start ww2 just be even more millitaristic and even more racially superior and heavy handed that's all.
 
The OP isn't hitler it's his personna or a hitler like figure
Thinking of doing a story not a hitler is the purest evil and wherever he is born he shall bring death and chaos.

SA isn't going to Start ww2 just be even more millitaristic and even more racially superior and heavy handed that's all.

Why do you need a Hitler persona for South Africa? What racism could a Hitler persona (whatever that is) offer to the most overtly racist country on Earth?

It already has everything it wants. Racial supremacist theories and laws to be back them up.

Hitler (or his persona) wanted to overthrow the German political system and create a new society based on Aryan supremacy.

South Africa pretty much had that and it grew out of the existing politcal system. There was little a Hitler type could do that wasn't already happening.
 
Why do you need a Hitler persona for South Africa? What racism could a Hitler persona (whatever that is) offer to the most overtly racist country on Earth?

It already has everything it wants. Racial supremacist theories and laws to be back them up.

Hitler (or his persona) wanted to overthrow the German political system and create a new society based on Aryan supremacy.

South Africa pretty much had that and it grew out of the existing politcal system. There was little a Hitler type could do that wasn't already happening.

Except be more militaristic and be a far more clearer figure head
 

Pangur

Donor
I was Thinking if doing a time line of what if Adolf Hitlers personna was born in south Africa to a heavily religious and nationalistic boer family rather than a Austrian one.

So here are my questions:

1) is it possible for a hitler type figure to rise up in 1930's south Africa under an even more evil nationalist party (apartheid was evil in my books)
Maybe. Perhaps if he is a member of the National party & have his father killed by the British in the Boer war, loose more of his family in a concentration camp

2) is it possible for the union of south Africa to even break away from GB in the 30's and if so what are the effects of such a thing

3) is it possible for Rhodesia to join South Africa, like Austria or the Sudetenland joined Germany (if SA is at this point still a dominion)

4) could South Africa force GB into making botswanna under SA control, (especially if Rhodesia is in union with SA)

That's going to be near impossible for the 30`s, later say mid 50`s that may not be impossible

5) how would the world react if a colonial war broke out between an independent SA and Portugal

Badly - If the SA's were not racist then the reaction just might be different
 

Cook

Banned
5) how would the world react if a colonial war broke out between an independent SA and Portugal
By 'independent', do you mean Independent independent or independent but part of the British Empire?
 

Pangur

Donor
By 'independent', do you mean Independent independent or independent but part of the British Empire?

On the basis of the OP's direction I assumed he means Independent Independent However your alternative take on it is IMHO worth looking at as well
 
Blacks and because I want to write a story... :D

But the blacks are already under subjection during this period. AFAIK they are no threat at all and white supremacy is not being challenged.

I still don't see what a Hitler persona could offer South Africa in the 1930s or 1940s that they didn't already have. The political system was controlled by former Boer commanders who took white supremacy and keeping down the black population as a given.

What would a South African Hitler say?

Hitler: "There are black people everywhere"
People: "We know"
Hitler: "We must pass laws to keep them in their place"
People: "We already have"
Hitler: "We must show no mercy if they challenge us"
People: "Don't worry we won't? We never have in the past"
Hitler: "We must have strong leaders"
People: "Are you saying Botha and Smuts are weak? They are national heroes. What are you?"
 

Pangur

Donor
But the blacks are already under subjection during this period. AFAIK they are no threat at all and white supremacy is not being challenged.

I still don't see what a Hitler persona could offer South Africa in the 1930s or 1940s that they didn't already have. The political system was controlled by former Boer commanders who took white supremacy and keeping down the black population as a given.

What would a South African Hitler say?

Hitler: "There are black people everywhere"
People: "We know"
Hitler: "We must pass laws to keep them in their place"
People: "We already have"
Hitler: "We must show no mercy if they challenge us"
People: "Don't worry we won't? We never have in the past"
Hitler: "We must have strong leaders"
People: "Are you saying Botha and Smuts are weak? They are national heroes. What are you?"

and if he follows on with `hey lets put them in concentration camps he is going to get his ass kicked:D
 
Hitler born in Austria rose to become the dictator of Germany under the political, economic and social conditions that prevailed in Germany during that period. If a normal democratic and peaceful Germany existed, Hitler might not even get a chance to enter politics. Or else he might have been employed as a painter to make posters for political parties. What I meant was that if born somewhere else he might not be a dictator or even an ordinary political leader there. If he was born in U.K or U.S.A, what would have been his future? Perhaps the leader of a Mafia gang like Al Capone!
 
I don't get this obsession with the idea that Hitler if he somehow were born to the same parents and received the same name under different circumstances that he is destined to be the same odious dictator we know him as.

Is there really no consideration of Adolf Hitler the innocuous immigrant with a heavy accent who works at a local restaurant and is said to be saving up money to open a newspaper stand? As in the forgettable man who dies at 50 leaving behind a wife and three children?
 
Is there really no consideration of Adolf Hitler the innocuous immigrant with a heavy accent who works at a local restaurant and is said to be saving up money to open a newspaper stand? As in the forgettable man who dies at 50 leaving behind a wife and three children?

See the short story "Catch That Zeppelin!" by Fritz Leiber. Reality blurs between OTL and an alternate world where Zeppelins use the airship mooring mast at the top of the Empire State Building. The viewpoint character (narrator?) is never named, but appears to be ATL Hitler, a harmless and respectable nobody.
 
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