Question.

How would the second world war have been different if Germany First had been by way of Alaska-Siberia [al-sib] LL route?

So, no operation torch, and the 8th airforce is a shell, while the 11th airforce gets all the aircraft sent OLT to africa and UK?

Same with ground forces.

How would the Al-Can highway differ?

Any thoughts?
 
How would the second world war have been different if Germany First had been by way of Alaska-Siberia [al-sib] LL route?

So, no operation torch, and the 8th airforce is a shell, while the 11th airforce gets all the aircraft sent OLT to africa and UK?

Same with ground forces.

How would the Al-Can highway differ?

Any thoughts?

There is no way that US Forces - air, ground or naval - are going to the Soviet Union.
 
If the US decided to win the war by shipping all of it's LL gear to the USSR via the Alaska route the result would be a huge stockpile of LL gear all along that route's chokepoints while other LL customers would be getting defeated on the battlefield. Never lose sight of the fact that LL meant that US Allies could do the fighting on the battlfield. The 10% increase in size that LL allowed Commonwealth forces to grow beyond what Commonwealth industry would allow is an equal number of US units that don't need to be raised.
 
This would be a highly complex logistics task. Setting up a route a viable transport route to Alaska, shipping across the straights then presumably utilising the railway to take supplies to the front.

You already have an established route that gets the war materials straight to the forward areas via the UK and then onwards. Unless you're also talking about shipping the UK LL goods via Alaska as well?
 
Good!:)



I suggest you re-phase your questions to make them clearer. At the moment they seem somewhat jumbled together as a bit hard to see what you are actually asking.

Fair enough. The United States focus is on Germany by way of Alaska/Siberia. My focus is on what happens to the war with the Japanese?

At some point, a decision is made that the US shall follow a "Germany First" strategy. However, in this ATL, that strategy (for whatever reason) is based upon the US forces being sent 'up and over' to the USSR, for deployment to stop the Germans in their tracks....
But also to provide a convenient jumping off point for operations against Japan.


"How would the second world war have been different if Germany First had been by way of Alaska-Siberia [al-sib] LL route?" So, the focus is to get american ground and air forces fighting the Germans ASAP, but also affording the US a very nice setup for offensive operations against the Japanese, should the Japanese start attacking north or Stalin gives permission for offensive strikes from soviet soil. What does the Japanese high command do?

US Ground and air forces are not going to be all that impressive in early 1942, so the big battles there will not be significantly affected in the first half of the year, and only somewhat more so in the latter half. On the other hand, everyone in Germany that remembers the US intervention in WWI will recall thinking thoughts of 'too few, too late', and then how that actually played out. Now they are faced with the inevitable build up of ever increasingly powerful US forces, that all the vaunted U-Boats can do nothing against. Psycologically, they will see themselves getting in it ever deeper and know that the atlantic ocean will not save them. US forces will not have to attempt to storm the 'Atlantic Wall', but will instead be able to build up as needed, untill they are strong enough to start pushing the German army back west along side the Soviet forces.

What can Germany do about this? Deploy additional forces to the Eastern Front, where they are already at their logistical capacity? No. Draw forces away from the African theater? Sure, but to what end, if they cannot even properly supply the forces that are already in theater? Not that Hitler isn't going to order just that, but hey.


Historically, the Al-Can highway was opened, as a poor but doable land route, by the end of 1942. This despite the fact that the Alaskan front was treated as a 'minor' theater of the war. The question asks how will the Al-Can highway differ in this ATL from the original? Will it be first opened as historically, but with continual improvments and eventually extend truck & rail shipping all the way to Nome? Will the Nome area become the largest trashipping point of her day? With Nome becomming a vast bastion of Ground and Air strength, does this proclude any possibility of the IJN entering the Bearing sea? What about attacks upon the Western Aleutians.


If the US decided to win the war by shipping all of it's LL gear to the USSR via the Alaska route the result would be a huge stockpile of LL gear all along that route's chokepoints while other LL customers would be getting defeated on the battlefield. Never lose sight of the fact that LL meant that US Allies could do the fighting on the battlfield. The 10% increase in size that LL allowed Commonwealth forces to grow beyond what Commonwealth industry would allow is an equal number of US units that don't need to be raised.
True enough, but have you ever read "The Thousand-Mile War" by Brian Garfield? I found that book to be most excellent, and the basis for my interest in discussing an ATL where the likes of General Buckner and Colonel Eareckson would play a pivotal role on the grand stage of the war.



There is no way that US Forces - air, ground or naval - are going to the Soviet Union.
Except, perhaps, over Stalin's dead body? ;)
 
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It's to note that japan DID attack some islands in the Aleutians, Kiska and another at least - i remembered due to a famous 'ISOT' type of story manga about a Defence Force modern ship ISOTed to WWII (and this was featured in a volume).... Maybe this is a possible factor, to make Washington and Army-Navy rethink another path.
 
At some point, a decision is made that the US shall follow a "Germany First" strategy. However, in this ATL, that strategy (for whatever reason) is based upon the US forces being sent 'up and over' to the USSR, for deployment to stop the Germans in their tracks....

US Ground and air forces are not going to be all that impressive in early 1942, so the big battles there will not be significantly affected in the first half of the year, and only somewhat more so in the latter half. On the other hand, everyone in Germany that remembers the US intervention in WWI will recall thinking thoughts of 'too few, too late', and then how that actually played out. Now they are faced with the inevitable build up of ever increasingly powerful US forces, that all the vaunted U-Boats can do nothing against. Psycologically, they will see themselves getting in it ever deeper and know that the atlantic ocean will not save them. US forces will not have to attempt to storm the 'Atlantic Wall', but will instead be able to build up as needed, untill they are strong enough to start pushing the German army back west along side the Soviet forces.

What can Germany do about this? Deploy additional forces to the Eastern Front, where they are already at their logistical capacity? No. Draw forces away from the African theater? Sure, but to what end, if they cannot even properly supply the forces that are already in theater? Not that Hitler isn't going to order just that, but hey.


Historically, the Al-Can highway was opened, as a poor but doable land route, by the end of 1942. This despite the fact that the Alaskan front was treated as a 'minor' theater of the war. The question asks how will the Al-Can highway differ in this ATL from the original? Will it be first opened as historically, but with continual improvments and eventually extend truck & rail shipping all the way to Nome? Will the Nome area become the largest trashipping point of her day? With Nome becomming a vast bastion of Ground and Air strength, does this proclude any possibility of the IJN entering the Bearing sea? What about attacks upon the Western Aleutians.
Very interesting thought but the only issue will be Stalins Paranoid nature ... I doubt very much that he would allow it unless the US was willing to place its forces under the direct control of the Soviets under Communist rule. Effectively the troops sent would have to be empty vessels, lend lease but with human bodies for Stalin to do with what he wanted.
 
True enough, but have you ever read "The Thousand-Mile War" by Brian Garfield? I found that book to be most excellent, and the basis for my interest in discussing an ATL where the likes of General Buckner and Colonel Eareckson would play a pivotal role on the grand stage of the war.

Stalin was under no illusions about who were the superpowers after the war, IIRC he offered US unlimited US field command during the darkest days of the Nazi invasion. I doubt he'd be stupid enough to give US forces operating in the SU anything under the most indirect command. After all if they do well they do well for the SU, if they fail then they are US forces so who gives a shit.
 
Stalin was under no illusions about who were the superpowers after the war, IIRC he offered US unlimited US field command during the darkest days of the Nazi invasion. I doubt he'd be stupid enough to give US forces operating in the SU anything under the most indirect command. After all if they do well they do well for the SU, if they fail then they are US forces so who gives a shit.
Not a chance Stalin would have let an army from a foreign nation set foot on Soviet soil even IF they were there to help
 
The main problem you had with sending anything to Alaska is the rugged terrain along the Northwest. the Al-Can highway was about the most balls-out fiat construction project to look like it was doing something when in fact, it was an exercise in wasting resources.
If they wanted to really ship stuff efficiently and effectively to Alaska, they needed a railroad and build up Nome or Juneau to be useful container port. IDK if that ever got off the drawing board b/c not only do you have to build the RR, but the switching houses and terminals along the way in BC and Alaska. 20X the investment they plowed into Al-Can Hwy to what gain I'd be absolutely buggered to give you a good reason to do so during the war..
After the war, hell, it'd be the ultimate pork barrel project to boost BC, Yukon, NT and Alaska settlement and development.

It was far easier to ship everything by sea from Seattle, LA, and Vancouver than try schlepping it on land to Alaska for shipment across the Bering Sea.
Of course, they had to clear the IJN from Attu and Kiska but that was never a serious threat.

I second the emotions of Ian and Rian re: American ground and air participation in the Eastern Front.

I've often speculated what Soviet attitudes toward the US would've been if we showed up in 1942 with ten divisions of troops. We shipped weapons and ammo and supplies by the bucketload. We were supplying locally-raised troops as it was. Why not some of our boys?

Five through Murmansk to help out Leningrad and five to be part of pushing the Germans back from Stalingrad, followed by 30-40 more, mostly via VV.
I could see Seabees and Army engineers doing a lot to expand the Trans-Siberian and Baikal-Amur railways. God only knows what the guys in the AAC could accomplish based on Soviet soil between CAS, air supply and LR bombing.

Of course, equipping and training them in theater would be a nightmare.
Also the issues of joint command and Stalin's paranoia and other stuff kyboshed that.

However, it would be extremely interesting to see how American tactics and TOE would evolve after slugging it out with the Germans in the Eastern Front
1942-1945.
IMO you'd see an even-bigger divergence between the Pacific and European campaigns between the amphibious-assault guys emphasizing NGFS, air power and light infantry adapted to jungle warfare vs the heavy-metal combined-arms Deep Battle dudes using to beating the Germans with artillery, maneuver warfare with mech infantry and CAS.

It would be extremely interesting to see if American and British paras could work with Soviet Desantniks to disrupt things and work more effectively with partisans in E Europe?

Thunder From The East sound like a good TL title?
 
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Why not just go all out in Africa and go up through Georgia to help out the southern armies instead of messing about with Alaska and Siberia. You can ship to Alexandria and build your highway/railroad from there. OK you have to go through Palestine, Jordan (Both Pro-British) and Iraq (also pro-British but a bit less certain) and then through to Iran which had already been invaded by British and Soviet forces. A supply line was established shipping somewhere in the region of 5 million tons of equipment / supplies throughout the war to the Soviets as it is so with a bit of expansion you can do what you want.
 
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Ohhhhh yeah and as the ultimate aim is to find another way to strike through to the Japonese ... Iran borders onto India (well Pakistan as that part is now).

Going through Iran is a lot shorter than coming down from Siberia I would have thought.
 
I've got a funny feeling that Stalin actually proposed that the US send troops under unlimited US command to Russia in 1942.

Has anyone else read this?
 
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