Question: Why the staying power for Abrahamic religions?

[AussieHawker]

Regarding the fact he slaughtered people to favor his "chosen people", remember that the Abrahmic God is also a protective deity. Thus, stricking the ennemy of his "chosen people" is part of his job.

And He punished his own people as well. And if he was so Protective the why didn't he Teleport them out of Egypt. Or just not harden the Pharaoh's heart. He did it so he could have a excuse to maim, Kill and wreck Everybody even near his people. Plus he left them in Egypt as slaves for years until he finally told Moses to do some magic tricks.

Also, as I had pointed out in my previous post, most of the time he acts harshly is because he is acting as a Judge and bringing down a punishment. In other words, most of the Abrahamic God's interventions are justified because something wrong happened. You can no doubt criticize the method or the scale of the punishment but part of me sort of reasons with that as "the bigger the punishment, the better the lesson is learned". Maybe that's crazy but that's my view of the thing.

And overact the f##k out. He made his own people wander the Desert for 40 years. He slaughtered people for the crime of being in the way of the Isrealites.

And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain." (Deuteronomy 2:34)

"And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Hesbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities we took for a prey to ourselves." (Deuteronomy 3:6-7)



My point is that the Abrahmic God messes with Humans when they get out of line. The Greek Gods messes with them whenever they want to, whether they are Good or Bad. Zeus is a notorious skirtchaser and I believe there are a few times where he acted without the consent of his partners. This also generally infuriates Hera whose anger doesn't fall on Zeus because a he's a god but on the mortal girls he slept with (and sometimes their chidlren: case in point with Heracles) just because she's furious.

So the Greek Gods act like normal humans that think emotionally instead of going EXTERMINATE EXTERMINATE. If any human was given lots of power then most would act like that.

The Greek Gods can also be quite unfair to mortals. The reason Odysseus is followed by Poseidon's wrath is because he blinded Polyphemus who was Poseidon's son... Never mind that Polyphemus was easting Odysseus' crew so blinding Polyphemus in order to escape was kinda justified. Poseidon doesn't give a crap: his son has been blinded and that makes him angry so Odysseus has to wander ten years on the seas. The only thing that eventually saves Odysseus is that he eventually gets to Ithaque...

Think of it like this. Your sone goes and catches some deer in a cave and eats them for dinner. However one of them injuries your son. Emotionally you want Revenge. After all how dare that lower life form hurt your son. Not rational but is more rational revenge then SLAUGHTERING a ton of people.

By all account, I favor a deity that messes with me only when I did wrong than a deity that would mess with me for whatever reason it wants.

Like getting in His way

On a side note, as it's really a minor point, the Abrahmic God is said to be the only one to exist. That means that with him, I have no chance of being caught up in a dispute between Gods and suffer because of it: there are several examples of this in Greek mythologhy, the best known being the Trojan War.
Not denying this, but that still means that there are bad Gods lurking around and messing with Humans. And generally, their fellow Gods have no problem with that. Eris causes Discord but I don't remember a myth where her fellow Gods are trying to stop her from doing so.
I'll admit I flunk a bit at Norse mythology but I don't think Loki is the only God messing with mortals.

Also the Norse Gods don't really protect Humanity from Ragnarok because Ragnarok is the End of Times: it would come eventually and the Gods (or at least most of them, I think there are one of two survivors in the end) would die in that gigantic war that would also happen to destroy the Nine Worlds and its inhabitants save for two humans that would hide in Yggdrasil's remains. Ragnarok is basically the equivalent of the Apocalypse to Christiannity: the world as we know it ends and a new one is born.

But Ragnarok has to have certain conditions to happen which the Gods try to Prevent.

Overall you are still comparing Hitler to Frat boys.

 

[dreadnought jenkins]

Overall you are still comparing Hitler to Frat boys.

Are you actually calling the god worshipped by the Abrahamic faiths Hitler?

 

[Thomass]

They've generally got a better class of afterlife. Both in terms of quality and in terms of access. It's not for first class warriors only.

They're also more attractive morality wise. The Greek gods were assh*les of the first order, and the Norse gods are only marginally better, and that's mostly because of Thor raising the average. The Judeo-Christian concepts of God are far more attractive as moral exemplars.

And they also have superior intellectual coherence. The Greek idea of the creation of the earth is . . . odd and the Norse origin story makes me suspect they had Ergot in their Mead one winter. And the Judeo-Christian god is very much the creator deity, which is more impressive than Zeus beating up Chronos and stealing his stuff.

Historically, whenever Christianity or Islam came into contact with pagan societies, at least 80% of the time, the conversions were fast and definitely one way. I don't think this can be attributed to luck.

First off the Abrahamic gods are to put it bluntly evil god alone killed the entirety of the world in one act. Second the creation story's are all equally ridiculous. And your right the 80% conversion rate isn't from luck it's from brutal, underhanded, and evil deeds such as killing the religious leaders of the opposing faith and in the case of the Nords they destroyed their holy site. It was a tree called Thors tree the "saint" Boniface sead that of Thor was real he wouldn't let him chop down his tree. Imagine the horror of all Jews and Christians if some terrorist blew up the west wall in Jersolum after saying if god is real he won't let the explosives go off and you get the picture. And then there's the Spanish inquisition.

 

[AussieHawker]

Are you actually calling the god worshipped by the Abrahamic faiths Hitler?

Read the Old Testament. Look at the countless towns and cities in which everything but the Cattle and Treasures are destroyed or killed. Then add on Millions (or Billions) more killed in the Story of the flood. Add on people from Egypt that died because God mind controlled the Pharoh into not letting the Israelites go. Plus all the other people on the Nile who would die if the river was turned to blood along the entire stretch from Egypt to the Source.

The New testament is much better with it's message of love and kindness but that is the other aspect of God. I respect Christians who listen to the teachings of the New testament and be kind to others. I respect the Muslims that listen to the good part of the Koran. I respect the Jews that listen to the good teachings of the Old Testament (torah).

But according to the stories in the Bible held by many Christians (not all) as 100% true and that he is a god of peace and love. Not so.

 

[Bob the Great]

Pagans didn't necessarily deny the existence of other gods, but simply believed that theirs were better. If one tribe is conquered by another, than the logical conclusion is that their gods were better after all, easing conversion into the new faith.

Followers of the Abrahmic faiths explicitly deny the existence of any other gods but their own. If they are conquered by people from other faiths, it was simply because god is punishing them (thats what the old testament says every time Israel lost a war).

 

[dreadnought jenkins]

Read the Old Testament. Look at the countless towns and cities in which everything but the Cattle and Treasures are destroyed or killed. Then add on Millions (or Billions) more killed in the Story of the flood. Add on people from Egypt that died because God mind controlled the Pharoh into not letting the Israelites go. Plus all the other people on the Nile who would die if the river was turned to blood along the entire stretch from Egypt to the Source.

The New testament is much better with it's message of love and kindness but that is the other aspect of God. I respect Christians who listen to the teachings of the New testament and be kind to others. I respect the Muslims that listen to the good part of the Koran. I respect the Jews that listen to the good teachings of the Old Testament (torah).

But according to the stories in the Bible held by many Christians (not all) as 100% true and that he is a god of peace and love. Not so.

I never disputed the fact that the God of the old Testament does some rather monstrous things.

I'm not arguing over the inherent moral superiority of Abrahamic morals. Just comparing the God of the Jews to Hitler seems...

I hope you understand where I am coming from.

 

[TheYoungPretender]

Perhaps a look to the History

First, my applause. I see this thread has conclusively proved that the lore and creations stories of faiths that began in the pre-modern do not always perfectly jibe with 21st Century morality. Some of their creations tales, when the rough bits have not been filed off by well meaning white people in yoga schools, can seem decidedly curious. Let us all be grateful that our morals and our stories shall be sealed in stone, forever beyond reproach by those who follow us. (That had some traces of sarcasm).

But to continue, and this is no sarcasm, but in answer to the OP. We write and conceive alternate history around the big players, the nobles and generals and emperors, the people who made the shots. Mass movements, by their very nature, are tales of the humbler sort who don't get biographies. Religions are mass movements - whatever Billy Graham (or Richard Dawkins) tells you, they are mass movements of people, and can be looked at such. Which religions survive is thus a story of mass movements and their success or failure - there is no special sauce or magic ingredient that makes them something apart, more unique or more horrible.

So let's look at the Abrahamic faith's competition, shall we? And let's remember, we're in a culture shaped by those faiths. We have a lot of Latin and Greek texts that predate Augustus. There often attractive, because you see sensibilities among the elites that are more modern, that seem more approachable, than some of the texts from the Medieval period that followed. But then there's the parts that don't. In particular, when you read more thoroughly, and not the parts that are "see, old people just like us" you see a much, much different view. Beliefs in compassion are strangely muted. There is an incredible, ingrained, and absolute view in a social hierarchy. Everyone has their place, and that place is almost always quite immutable, in a way that is very alien to modern eyes. Cruelty to those beneath isn't something your supposed to pretend not to do, its often a fucking duty.

There's more to this as well. Religious ritual is entirely and solely about confirming the established order, for the benefit of those above you. The moral message is keep in your place and take the blow. Some empathy for someone simply because they were a fellow human being has quite literally not been invented yet. Now a great deal of this is human nature - we're hierarchal primates, just like the other hierarchal primates. We'll try and find a way to climb to the top and fling our poe down on those beneath us one way or another, and social structures will usually find a way to nod and ratify this. (1)

But let's get back to mass movements, shall we? Now, everyone always knows that their movement is composed of brave and wise people who chose it due to the great value of its beliefs, and that all others are composed of week ignorant fools who only hold their stupid or non-sensical superstitions through fear or some base desire for gain. The cold hard truth is though that as we all believe this, some of us have to have picked those superstitions! And may not just for stupid little straw-man reasons, but deep ones! Sometimes, due to a process known as "scholarship" people make arguments for that other side that have nothing to do with their craven ulterior motives. So I think if we want to answer the OP, we should look for reasons deeper than "at sword point" or "fear of an awful afterlife."

In the post-Alexander Mediterranean, there are a lot cultures mixing, in particular some Semetic ones from the Eastern Mediterranean. Judaism, and a bunch other that didn't last, have a certain feature in common: once you're in, in theological terms, everyone's on the same level. (One most note here that being Jewish is a very broad definition: there are the covenant keeping Jews in the areas we would recognize, and the monotheistic, but not keeping covenant, Jews scattered from Rome to Alexandria and Selucia, who generally spoke Greek.) In an age where Plato and Aristotle are kicking around urban populations, a stripped down non-covenant Judaism has a real appeal. Maybe no appeal to Biggus Dickuss the Senator or Proconsul, but a great deal of appeal to the urban craftsperson or merchant or small farmer who maybe doesn't want to be in the great chain of crap rolling down hill spiritually.

Toss an even more spare version of this into the pot in the form of what we now call Christianity, and this goes to turbo. "We are all one in Christ Jesus" is a revolutionary phrase when the Romans have rolled in, coopted/supplemanted the local elite, and enslaved everyone in sight. It says you and the Emperor in Rome are equal in the eyes of the Divine. Its ritual of shared meal is yours, and not just a dressed up reason of how you'd best keep in line or else. It's sacrifice can be a piece of bread you eat, and not an animal that's outside of the purchasing power of ninety percent of the population (there's a fascinating literature on those old temple sacrifices and their roll in the society). If your an average person in the ancient Med, this is very, very attractive. You have a soul the same as anyone elses, given by a divine that respects your following them. And a nice afterlife is not to be frowned at when your life is pretty grim - and the state cult says the afterlife is more of the fucking same.

Now, I will disappoint a number of you reading this: I am, in fact, perfectly aware that a huge amount of the history of Christianity is a story of the same old hierarchal bullshit being imposed again. The difference is that compared to the old Greek polytheism, the Christian high Priest has to at least pretend they're all one, and pretend its for the personal benefit of everyone. And that's why while Christianity is a history of those hierarchies in tension, being overthrown and replaced, the reformers always hold the high ground, and make it more equal for a time. That humanity always let's the hierarchy back in - but that's being human. (Yes, religions change over time. They are not sealed in stone in the Bronze age, a fact that always disappoints fundamentalists/New Atheists.) The hierarchal bullshit is not self-justifying in the Abrahamics - it is often present, but the fabric of the faith does not, and this is the tool the believer always has to reshape it, in what's been a continues churn in both Christianity and Islam.

And frankly, this can apply to a lot of spread into the non-Western World. The parts of Hinduism that you don't hear in yoga, and the creation mythes that didn't make Cosmos, can be much more nasty. Look up being low caste in Indian. It's not pleasant. The upper castes? They are obligated to look at you like an Ayn Rand reader looks at someone who got foreclosed on, times ten. It's changing, but not always all that fast. The afterlife is often a chance to do it all again! In fact, every society has that great chain of being, which is always immutable, always one way, always extends into the afterlife and always ordained by the Gods. (Buddism gets much less hippietasitic when you realize that it can often "conform utterly, or be reincarnated in an even shittier position than you were in before".) Christianity and Islam, with the idea that we're all equal spiritually, varied only by our actions and beliefs we may choose, with a great afterlife accessible to all, is pretty damn attractive.

I'm not saying convert or else has never been a part of it, or even a big part with depressing regularity. But its far from only that. And part of understanding the Abrahamic's success is understanding the parts that may not jibe with what you believe, may not give you the warm fuzzies. Part of that is for the average schumk believer, its a far better world, with far more respect to your own dignity, than the polytheisms that preceded them. And thus its why they have staying power even when the whips and chains and weapons are withdrawn.

Now I've tried to answer the OP - let the "snip - all of thiz is teh stupidezz, religionss are only stoopid opporesion" Redditing commence!

 

[AussieHawker]

I never disputed the fact that the God of the old Testament does some rather monstrous things.

I'm not arguing over the inherent moral superiority of Abrahamic morals. Just comparing the God of the Jews to Hitler seems...

I hope you understand where I am coming from.

So it is really that I compared God to the killer of his People. If I compared him to another asshole leader you would have agreed with me or seen my point. I do see where you are coming from thought.

 

[Booster Gold]

Well as a Christian, I would say that the staying power is because of the inherent truth, but I realise that is unhelpful and...problematic in this context

While a lot of people have pointed out the evangelism, which is a great aid, I don't think anyone's mentioned how syncretic the Abrahamic faiths are. Christianity especially (and I think Islam, but I don't know it well enough to confirm) incorporated a lot of pagan beliefs and rituals into itself. The birth of Jesus was merged with Saturnalia, Yule, and a bunch of other things, pagan gods were transformed into Saints, and on and on. The evangelising Abrahamic faiths went out of their way to get butts in the seats in a way that pagan faiths just didn't.

Another thing not mentioned, (and again this is mostly from a Christian perspective) is the concept of forgiveness. The idea that no matter how far down into the darkness you've gone you can always come back to God's loving arms and all you have to do is ask. That is downright revolutionary and completely contrary to human instincts towards grudges and vengefulness.

And following on from that is the idea that God loves the poor, the downtrodden, the outcast at least as much, if not much, much more, than he does the privileged and the powerful. If you live in an aristocratic/oligarchical society, as most people did, you spend your entire life getting shat on, maybe occasionally getting so tired of it that you rebel...at which point you're lucky to get shat on again. In the Abrahamic faiths, all that suffering wasn't just the way things were, it was your key to eternal bliss. And all you had to do was believe.

Now if that's not a million dollar message, I don't know what is.

 

[Booster Gold]

Read the Old Testament. Look at the countless towns and cities in which everything but the Cattle and Treasures are destroyed or killed. Then add on Millions (or Billions) more killed in the Story of the flood. Add on people from Egypt that died because God mind controlled the Pharoh into not letting the Israelites go. Plus all the other people on the Nile who would die if the river was turned to blood along the entire stretch from Egypt to the Source.

The New testament is much better with it's message of love and kindness but that is the other aspect of God. I respect Christians who listen to the teachings of the New testament and be kind to others. I respect the Muslims that listen to the good part of the Koran. I respect the Jews that listen to the good teachings of the Old Testament (torah).

But according to the stories in the Bible held by many Christians (not all) as 100% true and that he is a god of peace and love. Not so.

If I may, AussieHawker, I think you're missing two things.

1. It was a different time. By Bronze Age standards, even Old Testament God was a puppy dog. And when Jesus came along preaching the message that everyone loves, what happened? (Which, coincidentally, is perhaps why the second coming hasn't happened yet; one crucifixion being quite enough. But I digress.) If God had started off that way, with the peace and the love and the what not, the Israelites would have just ignored him and joined in the worship of Ba'al and the Golden Calf. It's Marketing 101 - Know your audience.

2. All the people that God killed? They had it coming. Not by our standards, obviously, but by the standards of the day. The flood wasn't just killing for the sake of killing, it was killing the wicked, the Bible says so explicitly. It was just the death penalty en masse. By Bronze Age standards, what God was doing was not cruel or genocidal (which wasn't even a thing), but just. That is the difference. Pagan Gods were not just by any standards. The Abrahamic God was just by theirs, if not ours.

On a related note, my priest told me that the reason for all the violence in the Old Testament was not because God told the Israelites to go killy-killy but because the Israelites knew what they did was wrong so they said God okayed it in order to justify it to themselves.

I am So glad we Catholics don't have to take the Bible literally.