Question: What if Lee lead the Union?

DaHound22

Banned
General Robert E. Lee is regarded by many historians as a brilliant commander and soldier. He would lead a spirited fight to the bitter end for the southern army, and afterwords he would become an icon of the lost cause. But before the war, Lee was offered a role as Major General in the Unionarmy for the defense of Washingtion, an offer he would of course decline. But what if he had accepted it? How would this effect the war? How would other confederate general like Jackson, Longstreet, Forest, Johnston and Stuart fare against the Lee and the other Union generals? Where would Grant and Sherman fall in this scenario? I personally have little idea what this could look like. Any suggestions?
 
Lincoln did ask Lee to lead the Union army, but Lee chose the Confederacy (NOT for slavery or anything like that) in the name of his home state of Virginia. So first off, in order for such a scenario, we'd have to see Virginia somehow staying with the Union. Secondly, I think the North would have been a lot swifter at victory with Lee considering how much of a struggle he made for the North OTL.
 
Lincoln did ask Lee to lead the Union army, but Lee chose the Confederacy (NOT for slavery or anything like that) in the name of his home state of Virginia. So first off, in order for such a scenario, we'd have to see Virginia somehow staying with the Union. Secondly, I think the North would have been a lot swifter at victory with Lee considering how much of a struggle he made for the North OTL.
Maybe more of Virginia refuses to leave, enough so that Lee sees the parts that didn't as the 'true' Virginia?
 
The problem with the idea of Virginia staying Unionist is that removing VA from the CSA is far more important than RE Lee switching sides. Virginia was , by far, the most important CSA state. You need Lee to stay loyal even after VA leaves for his switching sides to mean much. You need a reason from him to be a Unionist otherwise Virginia's not leaving the Union completely overshadows his remaining loyal.
 
The problem with the idea of Virginia staying Unionist is that removing VA from the CSA is far more important than RE Lee switching sides. Virginia was , by far, the most important CSA state. You need Lee to stay loyal even after VA leaves for his switching sides to mean much. You need a reason from him to be a Unionist otherwise Virginia's not leaving the Union completely overshadows his remaining loyal.

Basically we need to have him decide to identify as West Virginian....if it does not involve too many butterflies maybe a different wife might do the trick? Someone wealthy and well connected from that neck of the woods.
 
Basically we need to have him decide to identify as West Virginian....if it does not involve too many butterflies maybe a different wife might do the trick? Someone wealthy and well connected from that neck of the woods.

Or change Mary Cutis's personality a bit to be as nationalistic as her grandfather so she identifies with the US first and Virginia second and she in turn influences Lee.
 

DaHound22

Banned
How would the battle shape out though. What would Lee vs. Jackson or Lee vs. Longstreet look like? Assuming you can get to Lee to be unionist for whatever reason
 
someone here posted a link that showed Lee having a quite distressing casualty rate. quite a bit worse than the 'butcher' Grant. in most of his battles, win or loss, he typically incurred more casualties than his opponent.

On the one hand, the North could sustain more losses. but, a long war of major losses might also lead to war weariness.

Personally, I think Lee is a bit over rated.
 
How would the battle shape out though. What would Lee vs. Jackson or Lee vs. Longstreet look like? Assuming you can get to Lee to be unionist for whatever reason

Longstreet would give him problems as Longstreet was the best defensive tactician the South had. I think he could handle Jackson easily enough because Lee couldn't be easily bluffed. Jackson was very good at operating in enemy country but when he actually had to stand and fight where he didn't outnumber the opponent he had problems.
 
someone here posted a link that showed Lee having a quite distressing casualty rate. quite a bit worse than the 'butcher' Grant. in most of his battles, win or loss, he typically incurred more casualties than his opponent.

On the one hand, the North could sustain more losses. but, a long war of major losses might also lead to war weariness.

Personally, I think Lee is a bit over rated.

There were quite a few of us that pointed that out. He had the absolute worst casualty rate of all the Army Commanders North or South.
 

DaHound22

Banned
There were quite a few of us that pointed that out. He had the absolute worst casualty rate of all the Army Commanders North or South.

See I've wondered if Lee switching sides might even strengthen the south a chances because of this. It seems to me, brilliant as Lee was that in many cases he held his subordinates back. I almost wonder if Jackson and Longstreet could do a better job in their own
 
Maybe have two Virginian governments. The first one declares neutrality but then certain politicians create their own pro Confederate government and Confederate forces go into Va to help them and capture Richmond kicking out the neutral Va government, pushing it to the Union side and thus Lee sees the Union side as legitimate and fights for the Union
 

RousseauX

Donor
General Robert E. Lee is regarded by many historians as a brilliant commander and soldier. He would lead a spirited fight to the bitter end for the southern army, and afterwords he would become an icon of the lost cause. But before the war, Lee was offered a role as Major General in the Unionarmy for the defense of Washingtion, an offer he would of course decline. But what if he had accepted it? How would this effect the war? How would other confederate general like Jackson, Longstreet, Forest, Johnston and Stuart fare against the Lee and the other Union generals? Where would Grant and Sherman fall in this scenario? I personally have little idea what this could look like. Any suggestions?

There's a very strong chance that he gets burnt out in the first campaign in 1861-62 where a largely disorganized army of potomac equivalent clashes with the equivalent of a disorganized AoVN where the quality of generalship is limited. Through very little tactical fault of his own he ends up losing a battle or two and is sacked by Lincoln from battlefield command and ends up in a role like Halleck's otl.
 
So we can stop discussing HOW Lee joins the Union I propose we use "Lee at the Alamo" as the base. Lee is still in Texas when the war begins and he defends it from Confederates.
When Virginia secedes he's considered a traitor so he has no choice but to fight for the Union, but on the condition that he fights on the West and not against Virginia.
 
Lee in the Union is one of the best PODs - ever.


So we can stop discussing HOW Lee joins the Union I propose we use "Lee at the Alamo" as the base. Lee is still in Texas when the war begins and he defends it from Confederates.
When Virginia secedes he's considered a traitor so he has no choice but to fight for the Union, but on the condition that he fights on the West and not against Virginia.

Ah! Now this is where you need a TL made from. Lee and Grant in the West would be a sight to behold. On the same side too.
 

jahenders

Banned
Lincoln did ask Lee to lead the Union army, but Lee chose the Confederacy (NOT for slavery or anything like that) in the name of his home state of Virginia. So first off, in order for such a scenario, we'd have to see Virginia somehow staying with the Union. Secondly, I think the North would have been a lot swifter at victory with Lee considering how much of a struggle he made for the North OTL.

While that IS the stated reasoning of Lee, there are some historians (Bonekemper, etc.) that suggest that it really looked like Lee was considering multiple options and that his decision to go with the South might have reflected more calculation than loyalty. That's unproven, but worth considering.

That aside, one option might be Virginia not joining the Confederacy, but if that's the case it may be stillborn.

Alternately, you might have a situation where Virginia splits (part of it secedes from VA) and the parts near DC stay in the Union. For instance, maybe the part from modern Potomac Creek, Stafford, Warrenton, Strasburg, and over into most of W VA stays. Then, Lee should probably stay with that.
 
I think McClellan for General in Chief with Lee for AotP commander could be an interesting combination. McClellan, as far as I can see, wasn't a half bad Commander in Chief, but much to cautious to be a field commander against Lee. Lee vs Johnston on the Peninsula wouldn't even be close; Lee directed the digging of Richmond's fortifications, and developed a keen understanding of Union strengths during his time as military advisor. He also worked to reform the ANV during his tenure, enforcing discipline and procedure better than his predecessors, and recognized the usefulness of fortifications while also knowing the strategic value of the offensive.
 
Thing is, if Virginia doesn't secede from the Union at all, then it's quite unlikely that North Carolina, Tennessee, or Arkansas will leave as well. You might see one or two, perhaps, but it wouldn't be surprising if all remained in that case.

And such a PoD, with the South down to 7 states (granted, with a very large border region that they could recruit from, what with there being eight border states instead of four), would have more of an impact than Lee switching sides.

I do think the Mary Cutis or Lee in Texas would be the best thing. Make it a fait accompli for any Southern General to stay north, and he probably would.
 
Thus, if Lee remains loyal to the Union and he's sent West, is he going to have a lacklustre beginning as when he was commanding Confederate forces in western Virginia?
 
While that IS the stated reasoning of Lee, there are some historians (Bonekemper, etc.) that suggest that it really looked like Lee was considering multiple options and that his decision to go with the South might have reflected more calculation than loyalty. That's unproven, but worth considering.

From what I understand, Lee did genuinely consider Winfield Scott (and by proxy Lincoln's) offer of commanding the Union army, but couldn't bring himself to fight against Virginia. Even then, he tried to sit the war out in Arlington and was gradually pulled into accepting a commission in the Confederate Army.

It's also worth remembering that Lee came from old Virginia royalty, and married basically the closest you could get to Southern royalty (not to mention being the daughter of Washington's adopted son). On top of that, given that his father was by all accounts a total fuck up, Lee had raised himself to be what he considered a paragon of Southern virtue. Barring some serious POD, Lee was always going to follow Virginia. If he was branded a traitor (ala Lee at the Alamo), he'd take the hit hard, and probably would just sit the war out. Even if he did somehow end up in the Union, he would almost certainly refuse to fight in a theater where he'd be going up against other Virginians, so it's the West or the Southwest for him.

That said, I would kind've love a TL where Lee takes Virginia turning against him, after a lifetime of trying to live up to the platonic ideal of a Virginia planter, as the impetus to go full scourge of God on the South. Lee had a serious temper, one that he always struggled to keep in check, and the idea of him saying "Fuck it!" and going on a rampage is too tantalizing an image to ignore.
 
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