Question on Repeating Crossbows/Armor

Highlander

Banned
Even though this question is for a world building deal I'm working on, figured I'd ask it in this section.

Let's say you have an easy functioning, simple repeating crossbow that is becoming popular in various armies, more so than the much slower and unwieldy arquebus. Around this time, armies from OTL were discarding heavy armor for lighter ones due to the arquebus.

If a repeating crossbow becomes popular, would we see heavy armor sticking around?
 
Even though this question is for a world building deal I'm working on, figured I'd ask it in this section.

Let's say you have an easy functioning, simple repeating crossbow that is becoming popular in various armies, more so than the much slower and unwieldy arquebus. Around this time, armies from OTL were discarding heavy armor for lighter ones due to the arquebus.

If a repeating crossbow becomes popular, would we see heavy armor sticking around?
Crossbows were also effective against armour (although, obviously, not against the heavier chainmail+plate combo).
 
Crossbows were also effective against armour (although, obviously, not against the heavier chainmail+plate combo).
AFAIK, repeating crossbows always had lighter draw weights than regular crossbows, in other words, less effective against armor.
 
Early arquebuses weren't all that effective killing machines in the beginning. Their real power was in the fearsome blast and smoke that they created. Heavy armor would still be very expensive so I don't see it sticking around for very long. The introduction of gunpowder also happened during a time when armies were getting bigger and bigger. I don't think that the French would be willing shell out the extra gold to purchase heavy armor for their infantry.
 
Even though this question is for a world building deal I'm working on, figured I'd ask it in this section.

Let's say you have an easy functioning, simple repeating crossbow that is becoming popular in various armies, more so than the much slower and unwieldy arquebus. Around this time, armies from OTL were discarding heavy armor for lighter ones due to the arquebus.

If a repeating crossbow becomes popular, would we see heavy armor sticking around?
No, because repeating crossbows were weak and short ranged there would be no need for heavy armor, at least against those crossbows.
 
Hmmm, WI say the CONQUISTADORS had repeating crossbows when they took on the Aztecs ? How much more effective would their killing have been with multiple-shot weapons, and how much quicker their victory over the Aztecs ?
 
Hmmm, WI say the CONQUISTADORS had repeating crossbows when they took on the Aztecs ? How much more effective would their killing have been with multiple-shot weapons, and how much quicker their victory over the Aztecs ?

I think the reverse, a repeating crossbow is something that could be reverse engineered - while the chemistry of black power is not amenable to being reverse engineered, unless you already know approximately what it is.

So the first repeating crossbow the Spanish lost would have been reverse engineered and used by the Aztecs, making it that much harder for the Spanish to win. They still would have, the whole political setup in Mesoamerica was unbalanced enough that the more politically astute Spanish were able to take it apart while being outnumbered several hundred to one.
 
I think the reverse, a repeating crossbow is something that could be reverse engineered - while the chemistry of black power is not amenable to being reverse engineered, unless you already know approximately what it is.

So the first repeating crossbow the Spanish lost would have been reverse engineered and used by the Aztecs, making it that much harder for the Spanish to win. They still would have, the whole political setup in Mesoamerica was unbalanced enough that the more politically astute Spanish were able to take it apart while being outnumbered several hundred to one.

The Aztecs would still need to have the ability to make steel or iron for a repeating crossbow to work.
 
The Aztecs would still need to have the ability to make steel or iron for a repeating crossbow to work.
No. There is nothing in a regular crossbow that must be made of metal. Granted, steel bows are more powerful and compact, but wood works. Given that clocks were frequently made of wood, it follows that less complicated and precise mechanisms such as the magazine &c. of a repeating crossbow could also be made of wood.
 
I think the reverse, a repeating crossbow is something that could be reverse engineered - while the chemistry of black power is not amenable to being reverse engineered, unless you already know approximately what it is.

So the first repeating crossbow the Spanish lost would have been reverse engineered and used by the Aztecs, making it that much harder for the Spanish to win. They still would have, the whole political setup in Mesoamerica was unbalanced enough that the more politically astute Spanish were able to take it apart while being outnumbered several hundred to one.

They never reverse-engineered the crossbow, and that would be much easier.

Of course, as has been pointed out multiple times in this thread already, a repeating crossbow is militarily useless. Even the lightest armour will stop its bolt nearly every time, and its high rate of fire is purchased by lousy accuracy and ridiculously low power. Without chemical energy storage, the deal is basically either a muzzleloader or a BB-machine gun.

BTW, the Romans (or Hellenistc Greeks) designed an autoloading boltshooter that was carriage-mounted and operated by a team of soldiers turning large cranks. That gives you enough power to matter on the battlefield, but you can see the downside, I'm sure.
 
Of course, as has been pointed out multiple times in this thread already, a repeating crossbow is militarily useless. Even the lightest armour will stop its bolt nearly every time, and its high rate of fire is purchased by lousy accuracy and ridiculously low power. Without chemical energy storage, the deal is basically either a muzzleloader or a BB-machine gun.
If the repeating crossbow was so militarily useless why did the Chinese use it for 2000 years? Answer, because it was not.

Yes, it is short range and not very good at penetrating armour. However the majority of non-European and many European troops were unarmoured and that includes some in the Medieval period. Armour is expensive to produce and usually the property of the military elites. Pre-Medieval European armies such as the Greeks and Romans are the exception because individuals and states could afford to buy it. Less wealthy armies such as the Vikings had large numbers of troops protected by little more than a large shield (cheap) and a helmet ( not cheap but nowhere near as expensive as body armour).

It is also worth noting that with the exception of elite shock cavalry such as knights and cataphracts horses are unarmoured. They also make better targets than men and don't use shields.

If the Chinese had made it to Mexico and gone conquistadoring they would have found their repeating crossbows eminently useful for shooting down Aztec warriors. They would have also be useful for shooting down Zulu impis and the rank and file of armies from the Indian subcontinent. It is only Europeans with their great propensity of wearing effective armour because they more commonly fought hand to hand than those from other civilisation where the Chinese repeating crossbow would have come to grief.
 
Repeating crossbows were useful military tools, provided they were used correctly. The Chinese used them mainly for two purposes: 1) as anti-siege weapons; 2) or as anti-personnel weapons. As anti-siege weapons, they were mounted on fortifications, often larger than the hand-held versions (in essence, small ballistas), and used against footsoldiers beneath the walls. Useful, but not overly so. They were far more successful as anti-personnel weapons, as the volume they put out more than compensated for their low penetration, against horses and lightly or unarmored portions of men. They had decent range, shorter than foot bows or regular xbows of course, but decent enough. Frequently backed by shield and pike walls, they made handy rallying points for Chinese cavalry and as part of field fortifications to break up enemy charge. The Ming dynasty found these repeating crossbows invaluable to use against their nomadic enemies, though the development of crude arquebuses and cannons did make them less useful as time went.
 
First off you guys are overestimating Repeating crossbows.1) They have a VERY low draw weight. The Chinese ones can barely stick in a tree trunk from a few feet away.2) They would not be useful versus Aztecs. First off the Aztecs would keep charging into the Chinese. The thing that killed was the POISON on the crossbow bolts. So it would take a while to kill a warrior charging. Especially if he's dodging behind tree trunks.If you want a good crossbow look at the ones that are described in Island in the Sea of Time.Steel Bows, and a reloading system worked by a lever (6 pulls) and it's cocked, 1000 pounds of draw. It sounds plausible and not only is the thing going to be more then powerful enough to punch through armor it will be faster then any arquebus to load and fire.
 
Urusai[InFi] said:
If you want a good crossbow look at the ones that are described in Island in the Sea of Time.Steel Bows, and a reloading system worked by a lever (6 pulls) and it's cocked, 1000 pounds of draw. It sounds plausible and not only is the thing going to be more then powerful enough to punch through armor it will be faster then any arquebus to load and fire.
To take out Aztecs, you don't need crossbow or for that matter any sort of bow with a 1000 pounds of draw. Just 100 would punch through their armour. On the charging bit, you are unlightly to stop steady infantry dead without firearms. that is where other weapons such as metal halberds come in. What the crossbows are for is shooting up the unsteady infantry that the Aztecs had lots of.

antisocrates said:
The Ming dynasty found these repeating crossbows invaluable to use against their nomadic enemies,
If they are going enough for shooting up fast moving cavalry then they will be first rate for shooting up the unprotected riffraff of the Aztec army.
 
Aye, if the Ming got to the Americas and decided to set up a few protectorates in its large Heganomic Empire.....and gave the Mexica and lets say Inca....Steel, Crossbows, basic Gunpowder, and such....theen you would see Cortes PWNed in the coming years.
Already did a Timeline on all of this :rolleyes:
 
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