Question on Chinese dynasty naming

Hi AHers,

Because my knowledge on China is relatively limited, especially in the pre-1900 period, I was wondering how exactly the dynastic titles worked?

For instance, the Former Qin dynasty, was it known as that at the time? Was it a name given in retrospect? Does 'former' mean something other than the conventional English meaning when used in this context?
 
Almost all of the prefixes are added by later historians to distinguish dynasties of the same name. Sometimes a single dynasty is cut to two due to its suffering from a calamity that saw its capital moved (Han and Song), but not always (Yongli's usurpation moved the capital from Nanjing to Beijing, but still considered Ming, not Northern Ming). The only exception AFAIK is Later Jin, who called itself such as a tribute to the Jurchen Jin, precursors of the Manchurians.

There are two ways to name a dynasty: toponym and adjective. The former is usually the title held by the founder (could be merely honorific) or the power base, though sometimes a place could be chosen without obvious relations.

The other way is using an adjective that either fits some convoluted rules or just because it sounds good. The only case before the Mongols IIRC is Xin dynasty (literally New dynasty). It sought to revert everything to Confucious's times, despite its name. Since the Mongols, this became the standard of naming new dynasties.
 
Almost all of the prefixes are added by later historians to distinguish dynasties of the same name. Sometimes a single dynasty is cut to two due to its suffering from a calamity that saw its capital moved (Han and Song), but not always (Yongli's usurpation moved the capital from Nanjing to Beijing, but still considered Ming, not Northern Ming). The only exception AFAIK is Later Jin, who called itself such as a tribute to the Jurchen Jin, precursors of the Manchurians.

There are two ways to name a dynasty: toponym and adjective. The former is usually the title held by the founder (could be merely honorific) or the power base, though sometimes a place could be chosen without obvious relations.

The other way is using an adjective that either fits some convoluted rules or just because it sounds good. The only case before the Mongols IIRC is Xin dynasty (literally New dynasty). It sought to revert everything to Confucious's times, despite its name. Since the Mongols, this became the standard of naming new dynasties.

Thanks Sharunaku, that's really useful :)
 
I was thinking about this question recently. Inspired by the part in Empty America where, long story short, a Han dynasty in exile is set up in the New World after the Yuan topple the Song, and name it Haiyang (which I assume Doug named after the real-life city, "nicknamed West Pacific Paradise partially due to its literal meaning of the city name, which means Ocean and Sun"), I was thinking what a similar oceanic Chinese dynasty could be called.

Would the "洋 Dynasty" make sense? Since that character is related to ocean and the sea? On the other hand, also has connotations of being foreign, which go against traditional Confucian sensibilities. But then, it would be transliterated as "Yang Dynasty", which is all sorts of cool for obvious reasons.
 
The other way is using an adjective that either fits some convoluted rules or just because it sounds good. The only case before the Mongols IIRC is Xin dynasty (literally New dynasty). It sought to revert everything to Confucious's times, despite its name. Since the Mongols, this became the standard of naming new dynasties.
Wang Mang was also former Marquis of Xindu. I'm not completely convinced by the idea that he named the Xin after the same Xin in Xindu, because he was no longer Marquis of Xindu by that time and since the concept of a "New Dynasty" is so obvious, but I wouldn't assume that the Xin Dynasty derives from an adjective in the way that the Yuan, Ming, and Qing completely do.

I was thinking about this question recently. Inspired by the part in Empty America where, long story short, a Han dynasty in exile is set up in the New World after the Yuan topple the Song, and name it Haiyang (which I assume Doug named after the real-life city, "nicknamed West Pacific Paradise partially due to its literal meaning of the city name, which means Ocean and Sun"), I was thinking what a similar oceanic Chinese dynasty could be called.

Would the "洋 Dynasty" make sense? Since that character is related to ocean and the sea? On the other hand, also has connotations of being foreign, which go against traditional Confucian sensibilities. But then, it would be transliterated as "Yang Dynasty", which is all sorts of cool for obvious reasons.
No, that wouldn't make sense. Dynasties are almost always either former states or grand-sounding adjectives. That Yang is neither.

The biggest stretch you could probably get is the Yang in Yangzhou.
 
I was thinking about this question recently. Inspired by the part in Empty America where, long story short, a Han dynasty in exile is set up in the New World after the Yuan topple the Song, and name it Haiyang (which I assume Doug named after the real-life city, "nicknamed West Pacific Paradise partially due to its literal meaning of the city name, which means Ocean and Sun"), I was thinking what a similar oceanic Chinese dynasty could be called.

Would the "洋 Dynasty" make sense? Since that character is related to ocean and the sea? On the other hand, also has connotations of being foreign, which go against traditional Confucian sensibilities. But then, it would be transliterated as "Yang Dynasty", which is all sorts of cool for obvious reasons.
Lets say that there are about three different yáng in your post, the first one is the yang in the city of Haiyang (海陽/海阳):
The English Wikipedia's etymology is either made by someone who don't actually read much Chinese or is a folk etymology. The Chinese Wikipedia gave the recorded etymology :據《登州府志》:「以其地在海之陽,故名。」"According to Chronicle of Denzhou-fu: 'Named for being on the Yang side of the sea.'" See Yin and Yang in toponym for the convention of using Yin and Yang in city names. This yang is the same yang as in Yin-yang.
The second one is what you've posted.
The third one as a surname is probably 楊.

Since they aren't toponyms nor adjectives, they don't quite fit the pattern. Although if you really want a Yang dynasty, there's Yangzhou (揚州) and Yangtze River (揚子江), one of which is probably the other's namesake. 揚's literal meaning is "to rise", so probably a justifiable name. As a plus, it's also homophonous with 洋 already in Middle Chinese, so puns and undertones would work without being anachronistic.

Edit:Google-fu too slow.
 
"Oceanic" isn't a grand descriptor? Perhaps not in Chinese culture, true. But check out this phrase:

洋洋

  1. vast, great, impressive
  2. overflowing, drifting
  3. leisurely
  4. self-satisfied, immensely pleased with oneself

In that way, wouldn't "洋" be an auspicious enough word?

Using "揚" as mentioned above sounds like a good substitute. Plus it doesn't have goat in the character, which is a bonus.
 
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