Question on ancient armies.

Recently I have been reading alot of historical accounts of battles taking place in the ancient world. One of the things that strikes me is the size of the armies that fought. During Xeres invasion of Greece he had an army of between a million and four million depending on the source. Alaxander the great had an army of perhaps sixty thousand. At the battle of Cannae the Romans could field a force of around ninety thousand men. And there are numerous other examples of very large armies fighting between 1,000 BC and 500 AD.
But how could this be the case? especially considering that armies during the middle ages, and even into the late ninteenth century (French Revolutionary armies excluded) rarely exceeded twenty thousand men?
Are the record exagerated to make the battles seem bigger than they were? Or did ancient armies rely heavily on conscripts serving for a few months before going back to their farms?
Really my specialty is more the nineteenth century and onward and these figures seem a little extreme so I am a little skeptical at accepting the figures given by the accounts.
 
Part of it is exaggeration. Part is that Antiquity is characterized by large, centralized states and urbanization, while the Medieval era is characterized by numerous decentralized states run by nobles, and so states in Antiquity tended to be better at organizing armies.

By the early Modern period, armies could be quite large-hundreds of thousands of soldiers fought in the Thirty Year's War. Small armies past that point are the result of gentlemen's agreements between monarchs to keep damage minimal, hence why Napoleon could swell the army so easily.
 
Ye Olde chroniclers are notorious exaggerators. If the enemy's army is bigger, it makes a victory look more heroic and a defeat more excusable.
 
By the early Modern period, armies could be quite large-hundreds of thousands of soldiers fought in the Thirty Year's War. Small armies past that point are the result of gentlemen's agreements between monarchs to keep damage minimal, hence why Napoleon could swell the army so easily.
Patently false; armies continued to grow after the end of the Thirty Years War, with field armies reaching upwards of 80,000 men during the war of Spanish Succession. At its high point, France had 400,000 men under arms, and hundreds of thousands served in the army of Frederick the Great during the Seven Years War. In 1792, not counting frontier regiments, the Habsburg Monarchy had 315,000 men. States were continuously desperate to arm as many men as they could without cutting into their tax base.

Destruction was not minimal either; generals placed a premium on minimizing damage to their own forces, and sought ways to defeat their enemies without battle. This often led to quite brutal campaigns of chevauche and scorched earth; the French routinely razed the right bank of the Rhine during their excursions into Germany, and Marlborough brought on the battle of Blenheim after a campaign of devastation in Bavaria. 'Gentlemens' Agreements' had very little to do with the character of pre-revolutionary warfare.
 
Patently false; armies continued to grow after the end of the Thirty Years War, with field armies reaching upwards of 80,000 men during the war of Spanish Succession. At its high point, France had 400,000 men under arms, and hundreds of thousands served in the army of Frederick the Great during the Seven Years War. In 1792, not counting frontier regiments, the Habsburg Monarchy had 315,000 men. States were continuously desperate to arm as many men as they could without cutting into their tax base.

Destruction was not minimal either; generals placed a premium on minimizing damage to their own forces, and sought ways to defeat their enemies without battle. This often led to quite brutal campaigns of chevauche and scorched earth; the French routinely razed the right bank of the Rhine during their excursions into Germany, and Marlborough brought on the battle of Blenheim after a campaign of devastation in Bavaria. 'Gentlemens' Agreements' had very little to do with the character of pre-revolutionary warfare.

My intention was to note that small armies like the OP noted were a feature of doctrine, not to say that all armies of the period were small. As for the gentleman's agreements, that was more in reference to the reliance on professional soldiers and the shying away from TYW-style sectarian conflict, not to the actual tactics used. Kabinettskriege and all that.

I suppose my overall point was that large armies were possible throughout the Modern period in a way they weren't in the Medieval period, even if states chose not to take advantage of that fact.
 
My intention was to note that small armies like the OP noted were a feature of doctrine, not to say that all armies of the period were small. As for the gentleman's agreements, that was more in reference to the reliance on professional soldiers and the shying away from TYW-style sectarian conflict, not to the actual tactics used. Kabinettskriege and all that.

I suppose my overall point was that large armies were possible throughout the Modern period in a way they weren't in the Medieval period, even if states chose not to take advantage of that fact.

That's not a gentlemens' agreement, that's just one system of mobilization; getting the most out of each soldier (drawn from the non-productive elements of society) through extensive training, without quite reaching the absolute limits of what a preindustrial state is capable of in terms of raw bodies. Certainly, they were straining the limits of what preindustrial states were financially capable of, with 90+% of Frederick's revenue going towards the army, and at least 75% of Louis XIV's. Professional soldiers were adopted (before the Thirty Years War) because they were effective; discipline and dexterity are essential for the infantryman, and cultivating them in the dregs of society takes time.

Nor was there distinct shying away from religious wars for any reason other than shifting priorities; the TYW was primarily a struggle for power between Catholic France and the Holy Roman Emperor, with protestant monarchs joining both sides, and often switching. The decline in religious warfare definitely didn't see a corresponding decline in brutality or devastation; people think of 18th century warfare as genteel and honorable, but that's just the powdered wigs. Ambush, guerrillas, scorched earth, hostage taking, pillage, and reprisal were part and parcel of warfare in the period; the only limit to the devastation was what one's army could carry out.
 
I agree, certainly, though I'd say that the ability to put bodies in the field was doctrinal; it's not as though there were any major industrial transformations in France prior to the revolution.

I do think we're a bit off the topic of why armies in antiquity were larger than medieval armies, though.
 
One million men is a vast exaggeration, even if it does include the camp that followed the army around. The Persian Army probably had 250,000 effectives and a camp of perhaps similar numbers, which in reality is vast, a veritable horde in truth. The biggest problem with such big armies is controlling them in battle, the King would generally set up the components and place himself in command of the decisive arm (heavy cavalry usually) and strike when the moment was right. The next biggest problem is feeding such a big army followed by keeping the wastage from disease at bay.

Medieval armies could also be pretty huge, the Crusading armies were pretty hefty, but the decentralised and low productivity nature of Medieval state and the limited military obligations owed to higher authority meant that many armies put into the field were often much smaller than in the centralised Empires of the ancient world.

The early modern armies of Europe weren't usually concentrated at the same place, as in the ancient period it was difficult to control them and they would desert when the got the chance. The big advantage Napoleon had was his citizens were loyal, they could forage in the countryside and then come back to the army whereas Fredericks armies had to be supplied by fixed magazines because they couldn't be trusted to return to the army.
 
One million men is a vast exaggeration, even if it does include the camp that followed the army around. The Persian Army probably had 250,000 effectives and a camp of perhaps similar numbers, which in reality is vast, a veritable horde in truth. The biggest problem with such big armies is controlling them in battle, the King would generally set up the components and place himself in command of the decisive arm (heavy cavalry usually) and strike when the moment was right. The next biggest problem is feeding such a big army followed by keeping the wastage from disease at bay.

Medieval armies could also be pretty huge, the Crusading armies were pretty hefty, but the decentralised and low productivity nature of Medieval state and the limited military obligations owed to higher authority meant that many armies put into the field were often much smaller than in the centralised Empires of the ancient world.

The early modern armies of Europe weren't usually concentrated at the same place, as in the ancient period it was difficult to control them and they would desert when the got the chance. The big advantage Napoleon had was his citizens were loyal, they could forage in the countryside and then come back to the army whereas Fredericks armies had to be supplied by fixed magazines because they couldn't be trusted to return to the army.

Goldsworthy points out somewhere or other that ancient armies significantly over (IIRC) 40,000 or so strong usually ended up losing, which he attributes to the difficulty of controlling them.
 

Hecatee

Donor
Ancient armies could be huge, but each civilization's pecularities had an impact on maximal army size.
For instance the Persians had an gigantic empire which they could mobilize for campaigns, but they never concentrated all of their forces in one place due to the difficulties of logistics. Large scale such as the Persian invasion of Greece under Xerxes required at least a year of preparation to simply gather enough foodstuff for the first few weeks of campaign, the rest to be supplied by sea convoys and from living off the land.

For the Greeks of the classical the land armies were never as huge and they had a lot of troubles feeding the men at Platea, where the armies of many city states coalesced in face of the Persian threat, raising around 100k men to face two or three time their numbers. Usually the city state could only max out their force to 10 to 15k men, but more often much less. I must add that their was an exception to this trend, and that was Sicily as often Syracuse could raise more troops than usual for a polis in order to fight against the Carthaginians, such as at Himera.

In the table 1 pdf file are the troops number given by the ancients for Classical Greece as collected by J.N. Corvisier, Guerre et société dans les mondes grecs, Paris 1999 pp. 185-188 (Xenophon is the Hellenica. Note that references are mainly to the Bude edition, which may use a somewhat different division than the Loeb used in the English-speaking world). You see that they usualy well under 10000 fighters, even for big efforts such as Mantinea in the Peloponese war, but their is a trend for bigger armies as we go forward in the 4th century and approach the time of Alexander.

The exception to this rule was naval warfare : with around 110 men per ship, a 100 ships fleet meant around 11000 men fighting and we see fleets during the Peloponesian wars that have up to 300 or 400 ships on each side, with once more the fights in Sicily showing larger numbers. For details see the pdf table 2.

To put things in perspective one has to remember the logistical side of things. For instance at the battle of Mantinea Sparta alligns some 7500 men according to Thucydides. If we take the rations the spartan soldiers received during the truce of Sphacterie then this amounts to some 9 tons of barley a day, or the content of some 15 charriots (each could, according to Xenophon, carry some 25 talents, +/- 650kg). At Platea the Greeks forces ate some 90 tons a day during some 12 days. When the Persians captured a large peloponesian supply convoy of either 250 charriots or 500 beasts of burden (depending on which interpretation you follow) they captured between 50 and 150 tons of food, only 1 to 3 days for the peloponesian. At least two or three such convoys were needed every day to supply the Greeks, which they could not organize and explains why they started to retreat before being forced into the battle proper (note that I don't go into the question of the camp followers which may have been with the greek army and could have almost doubled the number of mouths to feed...)

In this context most male citizens are soldiers expected to fight when called upon by the state, something that changes slowly with the rise of the mercenaries that will form an important part of the hellenistic armies. Those armies will also have a core component of professional soldiers and sometime call upon the city levies to bolster their numbers, especially in Greece proper. This explains why they can muster larger armies, but the command difficulties stay the same. Good officers could rarely command more than a few thousands men at once, and it took exceptional ones to lead tens of thousands.

Rome had easier access to manpower due to its peculiar mode of conscripting its former ennemies, thus bolstering her forces. She could thus rather easily raise armies numbering in the 20 to 40k men, and sometime the double. But the largest armies of the Republic (and of the Empire) did indeed proove too unwieldy and often let to great defeats (Cannae, Arausio, ...). Yet they remained a necessity in the east, with forces of up to some 60k men raised for operations against the Parthians (Julian II's expedition). However the nature of warfare in the West meant that such armies were not needed, and the infrastructure to support larger corps disapeared due to pillage, sickness and poverty.

We lack information about warfare between the gothic war of Justinian/Belissarius and the 9th century, but it seems armies were in the hundreds, sometime up to a few thousand men, with the Carolingian having the best logistics (but we don't know for how many men, although the period sees an increase in population, with long abandonned lands being deforested and exploited again). The Carolingian rebirth passed, and the population seems to have fallen once more between the 9th and the 11th century even if large scale efforts are possible, such as Hastings (between 5 and 15k men on each side depending on soures). Then sources come back and show indeed a world were warfare by a few dozen men was considered chronicle worthy, with few larger operations. The late 13th century of the Awans and Waroux in the Hesbaye area is typical of feodal warfare (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerre_des_Awans_et_des_Waroux) and sees only 300 men on each side. It seems it is mainly in the 14th century that we see much larger scale warfare with the 100 years wars, under the leadership of powerful kings (France, England, ...).

I hope those elements help you answer your question :)
 

Attachments

  • table 1 - troops in land battles 490-338 BCE according to ancient authors.pdf
    121.1 KB · Views: 95
  • table 2 - ships in sea battles 490-338 BCE according to ancient authors.pdf
    117.5 KB · Views: 120
We lack information about warfare between the gothic war of Justinian/Belissarius and the 9th century, but it seems armies were in the hundreds, sometime up to a few thousand men, with the Carolingian having the best logistics (but we don't know for how many men, although the period sees an increase in population, with long abandonned lands being deforested and exploited again). The Carolingian rebirth passed, and the population seems to have fallen once more between the 9th and the 11th century even if large scale efforts are possible, such as Hastings (between 5 and 15k men on each side depending on soures).

Belisarius invaded Africa with around 15,000 men, IIRC, and Italy with around 10,000. Procopius describes an army of 50,000 sent to fight the Persians as the largest ever raised by the Romans, though I can't remember the exact reference ATM. As for Hastings, most of the sources I've read put each army at around 10,000 strong.
 
Not sure how reliable it is, but Business Insider has a graphic showing the army sizes of 'superpowers' throughout history.

chart%20military%20army%20size%20history.png
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
But how could this be the case? especially considering that armies during the middle ages, and even into the late ninteenth century (French Revolutionary armies excluded) rarely exceeded twenty thousand men?

Civilizations in the classical world were more advanced than civilizations in the Middle Ages, at least up until the 11th Century.
 
Civilizations in the classical world were more advanced than civilizations in the Middle Ages, at least up until the 11th Century.

Maybe not necessarily more advanced but definitely better organized. Rome's real advantage over their enemies was bureaucracy and a willingness to do paperwork.
 
Maybe not necessarily more advanced but definitely better organized. Rome's real advantage over their enemies was bureaucracy and a willingness to do paperwork.

It seems to correspond with the motivations of the people forming the armies. Ancient history seems rife with stories of wars ending in the enslavement or even cultural evaporation of the losing side, in eras where both sides may tend to have comparably high levels of personal liberty, at least to the classes contributing to the soldiery. It's simple, if you lost, then at best your new conqueror was going to take away your property and rights, and at worst he was going to kill you and take your family as slaves. That gives a lot of incentive to the people to rally around a capable-enough ruler who would guarantee their freedom and contribute to the defense of their empire/nation/city. The Middle Ages saw this end to a certain degree in Europe. Most people had very little property, they didn't have much that conquerors could extract from killing them or lowering their station even more, so they likely had very low tolerance of rulers who routinely tried to take them off their farms and make them a permanent part of an army. And since they aren't on the farm, there's less tax revenue, so the underlings of the ruler would be quick to get rid of him. A big exception to this would be religious conflict, like the Crusades. Zealotry could be a big motivator for a people concerned about spending eternity in punishment. No standard quarrel between lines of a dynasty for a fancy chair could ever hope to inspire the same sort of enthusiasm that the Crusades instilled in normal people, if the Peasant's Crusade has anything to tell us. This fuedal limit on manpower was smashed by Revolutionary France and the levee en mass. The rise of nationalism and the breakdown of feudalism once again made people think they had something to lose from defeat, and had something to bind them together other than fear of the Lordships sword. The World Wars were the peak of this, as real or imagined, both sides believed that they faced extermination or servitude if they lost, so were much less tolerant of the thought of surrender than their medieval counterparts would've been.
 
Last edited:
But how could this be the case? especially considering that armies during the middle ages, and even into the late ninteenth century (French Revolutionary armies excluded) rarely exceeded twenty thousand men?

I suspect part of the reason is the prevalence, or otherwise, of siege warfare. During the ancient world, wars were often decided by one or two big battles, so it made sense to bring all your armed forces together to fight. Later, during the medieval period, fortifications were both more advanced and more numerous, meaning that even if you lost the battle, it wasn't the end of the world because your enemy still had to besiege all the seventy bajilion castles in your kingdom; conversely, if you won, you were faced with the prospect of besieging all your opponent's castles. (Just look at the aftermath of the Battles of Crecy and Poitiers, for example.) This would be a major logistical strain for a big army, so even if you could theoretically raise 60,000 men or whatever, it would probably be better to just take 10 or 15,000, enough for a siege but not so much that they'd put an intolerable burden on your logistics train.
 
I'm kinds sceptical of that. No way was the kingdom of Judah the western world's leading military power.

1000 BCE did closely follow a collapse in what was that region's social and economic order, basically a Dark Ages nearly 2,000 years before our Dark Ages. I wouldn't be surprised if some came our better than others. Also you have to consider that not everyone would have a numerically large military when they had the potential for it, Egypt for example was likely too isolated to need a large standing army.
 
Rome in 125 AD had approximately 30 legions, each of which is 6k men, garrisoned around the empire, so about 200k total. Which means something Cannae-sized is only 20-30% of what they could bring to bear, ignoring a draft-like action.

In the early medieval period, I'm willing to use Rome as a rough estimate, so something the size of France or Spain could probably pull together an army of 30k without too much trouble, and likely up to 100k if an emergency (Mongol-sized sort of thing) was to crop up.

So anything in the order of 50k isn't too unreasonable.

Those claims about '250k' or even '1-4 million' are completely ridiculous however. I have seen (though I'm only working from memory here and it probably isn't very accurate) that Francia in Charlemagne's time had a population in the order of 3 million. Fighting-capable men probably are only 20% (at best) of this. Persia simply wouldn't have enough people to make such an army without going nomad and sending their entire population out to battle.

- BNC
 
Top