Question: No East Germany?

POD: Army Group B under Paulus takes Stalingrad but is severly bruised during the battle and is unable to push further with the approaching winter. Stalin commits suicide after losing his namesake city, though Soviet authorities do not reveal his death until much later in fear of destroying the morale of the Red Army. Operation Uranus occurs as OTL but an entrenched 6th Army bleeds the offensive dry. The Red Army eventually succeeds but is exhausted from the conflict and thus their 'Race to Berlin' doesn't happen.

The western Allies timeline doesn't change and Operation Neptune occurs as OTL but with a slower moving Red Army, they are forced to conduct their own Race to Berlin under Eisenhower and Montgomery. The Soviets barely make it to the Oder-Neisse Line, which becomes the German-Polish SSR border. Under a successive Molotov government, during the negotiations the Soviets are unwilling/unable to participate any further with Germany and instead, what was East Germany IOTL is put under American occupation.

No German split, continued united Germany under a western government. Cold War still continues but how is the question. Does the Cold War occur differently since the Soviet have no control in East Germany? How is Germany affected by remained united? How is Europe affected by a united Germany? Will Europe (especially Britain in this case) be more or less pro-Europe because of this?
 
ASB, Stalin cant self-terminate.:p

Also given how occupation zones were agreed OTL long before the war ended I really don’t see the Western Allies alienating the Soviets by denying them an occupation zone. The conceivable only way this could happen is if Germany is ruthlessly & utterly de-fanged & demilitarized, and even that is unlikely.
 

MSZ

Banned
The western Allies pull back to the Elbe like OTL, making room for the Soviet occupation force. Berlin is split per Potsdam agreement. Nothing changes.

People forget that the Red Army didn't make it to what became the DDR western border OTL, and that the US Army made it as far east as Pilzen. But Roosevelt was too much of a sovietophile to stand up to the Soviet Union. No reason why liberating Berlin would make a difference.
 
ASB, Stalin cant self-terminate.:p

Also given how occupation zones were agreed OTL long before the war ended I really don’t see the Western Allies alienating the Soviets by denying them an occupation zone. The conceivable only way this could happen is if Germany is ruthlessly & utterly de-fanged & demilitarized, and even that is unlikely.

If Hitler can do it, I'm pretty sure the Man of Steel could as well. :D Beside, it's not denying them a zone if a Molotov-led Soviet Union isn't able/not wanting to involve itself with the occupation.

The western Allies pull back to the Elbe like OTL, making room for the Soviet occupation force. Berlin is split per Potsdam agreement. Nothing changes.

People forget that the Red Army didn't make it to what became the DDR western border OTL, and that the US Army made it as far east as Pilzen. But Roosevelt was too much of a sovietophile to stand up to the Soviet Union. No reason why liberating Berlin would make a difference.

The idea is that the Red Army is bled dry trying to retake Stalingrad, thereby being unable to make it all the way through Eastern Europe and into Central Europe. The Western Allies want to bring the war to a conclusion, they aren't about to sit around and wait for the Soviets to do it for them (even if they wanted to the Soviets would be no position to do so). Potsdam would be entirely different seeing how Stalin is dead and Molotov has taken his place. Roosevelt is also dead at this stage, Truman was at Potsdam.

Regardless, the question hasn't been answered: What would the affect be if Germany stayed together, no East or West but a 'western' Germany?
 
Could your POD lead to other countries being left out of the Soviet sphere--czechoslovakia, maybe, with Austria firmly in the Allied sphere--and so while the USSR still gets a portion of germany per agreement, the eventual result is that the powers agree to withdraw and make germany neutral, as with OTL Austria.
 
No East Germany

The biggest single change I can see is Stalin is dead. Without this tyrant the balance of power shifts back towards the Army and Zhukov is made General Secretary in 1946. The East German forces in the 50's onwards were amongst the most loyal, best equipped communist forces facing the West. The De-militarised Greater Germany is able to gain full benefit from the Marshall plan and become the economic power house it did earlier in the 1960's. Poland I suspect will be depopulated and made into a Military camp to act as a buffer zone between Germany and the Motherland. THe greatest difference between East and West could be seen in comparing the FGR with the DDR in the 1960s-80s. The Cold war may become a Chilled war without the psychosis spread and imposed by Stalin on his country.
 
The only possibilities here are that the Soviets occupy all of Germany or the democracies half. The only thing that will slow the USSR down is if there is no Second Front in 1944. And that's slowing them down, not anywhere near actually halting them.
 

Sumeragi

Banned
The only way Stalin would be driven to suicide is if Moscow was captured. He gambled everything and remained in that city, so I don't see him getting out of it alive if the Germans manage to take it.
 
POD: Army Group B under Paulus takes Stalingrad but is severly bruised during the battle and is unable to push further with the approaching winter. Stalin commits suicide after losing his namesake city, though Soviet authorities do not reveal his death until much later in fear of destroying the morale of the Red Army. Operation Uranus occurs as OTL but an entrenched 6th Army bleeds the offensive dry. The Red Army eventually succeeds but is exhausted from the conflict and thus their 'Race to Berlin' doesn't happen.

The western Allies timeline doesn't change and Operation Neptune occurs as OTL but with a slower moving Red Army, they are forced to conduct their own Race to Berlin under Eisenhower and Montgomery. The Soviets barely make it to the Oder-Neisse Line, which becomes the German-Polish SSR border. Under a successive Molotov government, during the negotiations the Soviets are unwilling/unable to participate any further with Germany and instead, what was East Germany IOTL is put under American occupation.

No German split, continued united Germany under a western government. Cold War still continues but how is the question. Does the Cold War occur differently since the Soviet have no control in East Germany? How is Germany affected by remained united? How is Europe affected by a united Germany? Will Europe (especially Britain in this case) be more or less pro-Europe because of this?

That POD is ASB, Stalingrad's a victory for the Germans that never was. They have no chance whatsoever in any sense of the word to win a Battle of Stalingrad, the focus on the city means their overall strategic design has already fallen apart. Stalingrad and Kursk are two PODs where you literally can do nothing more to help the Germans than what they got IOTL. This POD works much better if the Germans go with Hitler's idea to stop in front of Moscow, entrenching and preparing for a resumed offensive in the spring and summer, avoiding the mammoth logistics sustained IOTL and keeping Hitler's loathing and distrust of his generals minimized for at least a little bit longer. Stalingrad's too late, German victory at Kursk is a no-go. 1941's their chance to bleed the USSR white and be in a stronger position for a defensive war.
 
The only way to prevent a partition of Germany after the war is that the western allies conquer Germany before the Soviets reach the German (pre-war) borders.
 
That's very improbable because in OTL the Soviets reached German territory months after the western allies.

Actually IOTL the Soviets were within 100 KM of Berlin well before the WAllies were across the Rhine. :rolleyes: The WAllies captured Aachen and then their offensive slowed down, after the failures on the northern and southern edges of the front and Soviet advances into East Prussia, Pomerania, and Silesia the USSR was taking more German territory than the Allies did and managed to get to a position to capture Berlin in Vistula-Oder when the Germans showed that the WAllies were still epically stupid and blind to what Germany might do to them.
 
If Hitler can do it, I'm pretty sure the Man of Steel could as well. :D Beside, it's not denying them a zone if a Molotov-led Soviet Union isn't able/not wanting to involve itself with the occupation.

Stalin isnt Hitler! Hitler was an emotionally volatile luntic who often did things against his own intrests, a trait shared by many of his inner circle. Stalin was cold & pragmatic to the point of utter psychopathy. He would not kill himself!

He could drop dead of a heart-attack or stroke, but sucide is nearly ASB without him undergoing a total personality-swap.


The idea is that the Red Army is bled dry trying to retake Stalingrad, thereby being unable to make it all the way through Eastern Europe and into Central Europe. The Western Allies want to bring the war to a conclusion, they aren't about to sit around and wait for the Soviets to do it for them (even if they wanted to the Soviets would be no position to do so). Potsdam would be entirely different seeing how Stalin is dead and Molotov has taken his place. Roosevelt is also dead at this stage, Truman was at Potsdam.

The problem with that like most ''Germans do better POD's'' is that the POD is one-sided, if the Red Army is bled dry then so too is the Wehrmacht. Also in the long-term in terms of manpower, equipment & generalship, the Soviets were getting stronger. Whilst the Wehrmacht peaked in 1941 & was getting weaker in reletive terms from then on.

Also granted big changes on the Soviet side it isnt clear who the POTUS would be or that Potsdam would take place, maybe the leaders would meet elsewhere at another date, or not-at-all. In any event Molotov had dealt with Chuchill & FDR before and even though he lacked Stalin's charm he was no pushover. Also I doubt Molotov would have Stalin's desire to play ''the Generalissimo'' and would leave the war-effort to the Marshals like Zhukov etc.

Regardless, the question hasn't been answered: What would the affect be if Germany stayed together, no East or West but a 'western' Germany

ASB the Soviets, the French and the Poles etc wouldnt tolerate it and their bargining position vis-a-vis the West was strong regardless of who was in power. With the Red Army having destroyed the vast bulk of Hitler’s forces. The only acceptable outcome for them and other Nazi-occupied nations would be a neutral demilitarized (if mostly whole) Germany.


Actually IOTL the Soviets were within 100 KM of Berlin well before the WAllies were across the Rhine. :rolleyes: The WAllies captured Aachen and then their offensive slowed down, after the failures on the northern and southern edges of the front and Soviet advances into East Prussia, Pomerania, and Silesia the USSR was taking more German territory than the Allies did and managed to get to a position to capture Berlin in Vistula-Oder when the Germans showed that the WAllies were still epically stupid and blind to what Germany might do to them.

Also the Red Army might've taken Berlin in February 1945, if Stalin didnt order Rokossovisky's forces to turn northwards into East Prussia etc. Leaving Zhukov's flank open & forcing him to halt at the Oder.
 
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