Hi, just a simple thought which has been bugging me lately.

In any hypothetical scenario of Napoleon dominating Germany, Italy and Spain which is what he wanted to accomplish. What happens to the German, Italian and Spanish populations? I only ask because the French aimed to incorporate and assimilate their territories in Europe and abroad, but Napoleon's aim was to create an empire without borders in Europe.

The ultimate question is can any of part these territories be assimilated into becoming French or will he create a multi-ethnic empire. Either way, Napoleon seems to be trying to restore 'Francia' and be Charlemagne's true successor.

Regards
 
Anyone got any ideas? Still think the French will colonise Savoy and the Rhine. I also think they will annex the Duchy of Berg directly when they figure out the industrial mammoth which the Ruhr can get to and how much coal is there.

Is complete annexation of Italy, the Rhine confederation and Spain possible? I think Napoleon or his successors would try but it is extremely difficult if not impossible to accomplish.
 
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In any hypothetical scenario of Napoleon dominating Germany, Italy and Spain which is what he wanted to accomplish. What happens to the German, Italian and Spanish populations? I only ask because the French aimed to incorporate and assimilate their territories in Europe and abroad, but Napoleon's aim was to create an empire without borders in Europe.
Had Napoleon been successful he would have likely presented himself as the heir to Charlemagne in a revived Frankish Empire without the trappings of feudalism that caused the collapse and fragmentation of Charlemagne’s Empire. Napoleon could have supplanted the Continental System with a sort of United European economy centered around the Franc. As industrialization rolls around France in possession of the Rhineland and it’s Iron ore deposits wil likely surpass Britain. With the other economies of Continental Europe tied to France’s they’ll likely industrialize at similar rates.

France doesn’t experience the demographic collapse of otl and maintains a high birth rate due to the high morale under a victorious Bonapartist France, the lack of manpower being depleted through Napoleon losing and coming back again, and access to more resources thanks to the Rhineland. The Walloons and Flemish will likely be assimilated into French culture and be more Francophone thanks to them being integrated into France. Belgium in otl broke away from the Netherlands because they were closer to Catholic France in culture than the Protestant and more Germanic Netherlands.

Anyone got any ideas? Still think the French will colonise Savoy and the Rhine.
I don’t think they’ll colonize Savoy. Savoy was historically under French influence with Occitan and Italian people under it. The Third French Republic forcibly united France’s language along the lines of the Parisian dialect of French as the standard of the French National language. One of its policies was to restrict languages in schools to French.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_France

Under Napoleon, I don’t think this is likely to occur. After he showed himself proclaimed himself as a stabilizing influence and later proclaimed himself emperor, many monarchists and peasants in Southern and Northwestern France who were generally pro-monarchy supported him. Many emigres also returned to France. The French Kings didn’t really have a strong position on languages spoken, and Napoleon would likely maintain something similar to avoid needlessly alienating them. The other francophone populations in the Rhineland will be integrated into French culture with their local dialect being treated as another French dialect.

What happens to the German, Italian and Spanish populations?
The Italian populations and German populations keep their language and culture. Even in Napoléon’s Illyrian provinces he let the local people keep their language with French as the official administrative language. Napoleon’s Empire will be a multiethnic language. And things like German nationalism kicked in as a result of anger at Napoléon over his occupation and conscription of German troops. Depending on the circumstances of Napoleon’s victory, this might be butterflied away or neutralized easily.

Let’s say Napoleon if he really wants Spain, waits till all his other foes either negotiate a peace with him or are too weak to rebel. Perhaps Napoleon successfully negotiates an alliance with Russia as he almost did. Talleyrand purposely sabotaged talks and convinced Alexander to go against Napoléon. Maybe Napoléon doesn’t bring him along or better yet discovers his treason and has him executed. If Napoleon and Tsar Alexander form an alliance, Napoleon could likely invade the Ottoman controller Balkans.

Another option if the alliance isn’t established is if Napoleon forced the Tsar to fight him. Here he sticks to his original objective and takes land for Poland by getting Lithuania for it. Maybe he can stage an uprising of native Poles within Russian lands and uses it to beat the Russian army. The Tsar would be forced to withdraw from Central Europe. Maybe he gets Sweden and the Turks to help him invade Russia which forces the Russians to fight on the field.

In regards to Spain Napoleon would then be free to invade it. Maybe Napoleon seeing the vast scale of his empire resolved to take only Calonia and maybe Navarre for himself. Maybe with his personal presence on the field he crushed all revolts. Perhaps Ferdinand usurps his father and his incompetence leads to revolts in Spain. This chaos could be used by Napoleon to place his relative on its throne. Assuming Joseph is now King, he would likely institute a Bonapartist Government in Spain with rifts given to the populace.

In regards to Italy, the Kingdom of Rome was based on the Medieval HRE Kingdom of Italy. Napoléon I made his son as it’s King for the heir to rule. The Southern half would be led by Murat. It’s likely that any liberal revolutionaries would be crushed by France due to its vast wealth and intact army. Napoleon II would likely focus on consolidating his father’s empire. He would likely grant noble and army positions to bother Germans and Italians in reward for their loyalty. Napoleon II before his untimely death was regarded to be very intelligent, charismatic, and had a passion for the army. Napoleon II had a very close friendship with Sophie of Bavaria. Napoleon II might marry a German princess which would emphasize the universal nature of the French Empire. Napoleon’s II being trained by his father means that France would be stable enough to confederate its vast client states and territories into another Universal Empire along the lines of the HRE at its height. The Bonaparte cult of personality and massive propaganda wit Napoleon portraying himself as a Roman Emperor. will help in that regard.
 
@Basileus_Komnenos I wouldn’t hinge something so massive as demographics on something as fuzzy as “high morale”.
By high morale I meant something like a post-war baby boom type situation for France. Sorry if I wasn’t clear. What I meant was that with Napoleon winning and dominating Europe without the Spanish ulcer to drain his manpower, and the disastrous flight from Russia that killed most of his Grand Armee, France would have a huge manpower reserve. After the war, Napoleon would have to de-mobilize his massive force. Many returning soldiers who weren’t killed off like otl, would have children. Also a stable Napoleonic Empire also allows for greater industrialization and development unlike what happened in otl France.
 
@Basileus_Komnenos ”Greater industrialization and development” would be by far the more important factor here; bringing home a couple hundred thousand* more French men won’t make much difference in the long term.

So I’m this respect at least, questions of alternate French demography are bound up in questions of the alternate French Economy.

*remember that large Napoleonic armies like the Grand Armee were only part French, so a lot of these survivors are also, by this same token, going to help other European nations as well; that’s to say nothing of countries like Russia, who in avoiding disasters like the Invasion, are also getting demographic boosts
 
@Basileus_Komnenos ”Greater industrialization and development” would be by far the more important factor here; bringing home a couple hundred thousand* more French men won’t make much difference in the long term.

*remember that large Napoleonic armies like the Grand Armee were only part French, so a lot of these survivors are also, by this same token, going to help other European nations as well; that’s to say nothing of countries like Russia, who in avoiding disasters like the Invasion, are also getting demographic boosts
@John Fredrick Parker
France historically has had a higher birthrate in Europe. I agree with you that greater industrialization is the key. France’s political instability after Napoleon did not help it here. France with the Rhineland and the Netherlands under its belt is very capital rich and had access to more raw materials. Italy was also very wealthy as well. It has lots of agricultural farmland and it’s an ideal location for trade.

The Bonapartes will likely be very involved in Italy as they will seek to stylize themselves as successors to the Roman Empire. The Kingdom of Italy might be given to the heir like the title Dauphine was for the heir in Ancien Regime France. Italy would be very likely to experience huge cash inflows from France and vice versa. But since Italy lacks raw materials it might become a financial center and maybe a manufacturing hub for the Empire.

Maybe to avoid the Austrians turning in Napoléon during his invasion of Spain, Napoléon partitions Prussia, giving lands to Poland and most importantly, giving Silesia back to Austria. A massive concession like this will likely get them on Bonaparte’s side. If the Austrians don’t turn on him, Bonaparte can focus his attention on Spain and the Spanish Ulcer could be avoided. Maybe Spain’s other overseas provinces submit with Napoleon himself rapidly crushing any opposing forces.

In my view I think Napoleon should have let Ferdinand take over and then let his unpopularity cause riots and rebellions to emerge. Napoleon could then invade and take over France. Maybe the demoralized Spanish soldiers surrender and perhaps defect en masse to Napoléon.
 
I know its only a game but in Napoleon Total war, in their 'Peninsular campaign,' there is supreme court legislation to annex the entire Peninsular within the Empire and it brings benefits.:rolleyes:

This is a really good map. It shows Napoleonic annexations which are now apart of other countries. I said Savoy (Piedmont) would be kept within the empire because Napoleon annexed it. I can't see a victorious Napoleonic France giving it back.

The French annexation of Hanover, Illyria Provinces and the Papacy territories are outright illegitimate and in diplomacy outrageous. It gives evidence that Napoleon was willing to annex any territory he wanted only by his will, need and ambition.

I will talk about populations later in a separate post, so complicated.

Francia(4).png


Otherwise, these are some of the wild maps on a Napoleonic 'Francia'. They are so wild...

Francia.png


Francia(2).png


Francia(3).jpg
 
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Germany had a higher birth rate from the 1648 and until a few decades ago than France. There was a lot of reasons for this, some was social and cultural changes caused by the 30YW, other was changes in agriculture which favored the colder parts of Europe.
 
I have read a small amount of information on the economic impact of the French Revolution and Napoleon on France. I also found information on agriculture, banking, finance and industrialization.

I also found a 112 page PDF document on the "Economic and Social Conditions in France During the Eighteenth Century" and 28 PDF document on the "Economic structure and agricultural productivity in Europe, 1300-1 800". I don't intend reading it all because I know where to look and what to look for.

From what I have read, it seems as if Napoleon was going in the correct direction and he could have made the French population boom and industrialize France on the scale of Germany and Japan, given time but it would a require an unprecedented alteration and reorganisation of French social, economic, industrial, agriculture, banking and finance behaviour not seen in human history. But REMEMBER!! we are not talking about some politician or statesman. We are talking about the most unethical, immoral and frankly the most downright insanely ambitious man on earth. Napoleon also has absolute power which makes it easier because there is no Parliament questioning his decisions and he does not have to pass legislation through parliament. However, there is the Continental System, which was an economic weapon to hurt Britain, which should not have been implemented. He should have used another method to defeat us British but above all not economics and trade.

If I am going to write a projection of French agriculture, banking, finance and industrialization I am going to need a victory scenario for Napoleon. Different scenarios mean different outcomes, especially if the continental system is implemented on 21 November 1806. This means something has to drastically happen outside of Europe for him to believe that he does not need to implement this policy and that Britain is hurting badly before 1806.

There is only one scenario I know viable enough..............
 
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