I have a question whats the earliest a united Italy can be achieved? With a pod after 600AD.
Question: How early can a united Italy exist?
- Thread starter Promethean
- Start date
At this point, though, you have the Byzantines to contend with...
And they are quite powerfull at this point...
Susano
Banned
At this point, though, you have the Byzantines to contend with...
And they are quite powerfull at this point...
The Southern Peninsula wasnt thought as "Italy" at this time, so an united Italy at this time doesnt need to include it. Of course, in 600 Byzanz also contrilled the Exarchate of Ravenna, okay, yes, but nontheless, my point stands - you can simpyl wait until the Kingdom of Italy forms in the 9th century, and then have it centralise throughout teh centrueis like France did.
Having a weaker Frankish Empire would help quite a bit... Or have them concentrate more on either Spain or the lands to their east (Saxony etc...).
Susano
Banned
Weaker Frankish Empire? Why that? Then you have a Langobardic Kingdom... just have the Kingdom of Italy appear in teh Frankish divisions as IOTL.
Ah...
I assumed that the OP required it to be independent too...
In that case... Charlemagne away...
(The Song of Roland has the entire Italian peninsula (apart from the remnant Papal State in Lazio) as a united Kingdom of Italy...
)Susano
Banned
Id assume the same, but the Kingdom of Italy was one of the Frankish successor states! One of the Lotharingian successor states, to be exact, established at the Prüm Partition 855. Strange that there is no English wiki article, and the mao sucks, but, well: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teilung_von_PrümAh...
I assumed that the OP required it to be independent too...
In that case... Charlemagne away...
Lotharingia was divided, and Louis II became King of Italy. Charles' territory is of coruse the Inevitable Kingdom of Burgundy (later divided into Upper and Lower Burgundy), and Lothar IIs territory is Lotharingia proper, which later fell to Germany (and Burgundy and Italy formed the HREGN as an union with Germany, of course).
There isn't an exact translation, mind, but you can still get all of that information on the English Wiki...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Francia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Italy_(medieval) etc.
As long as u have the Pope stuck in Rome claiming temporal authority i d say never...
With Italy i mean at least the Apenian peninsuala and a nice northern border and not the Roman Rubicon where there Italy starts.
Also thank you all for the information i already gained by reading your answers.
where there Italy starts.Also thank you all for the information i already gained by reading your answers.
Indeed...
Either you have Medieval people telling to Pope where to go (not likely*) or you have a PoD that's earlier than 600...
Then just have the Ostrogothic Kingdom survive...
Realistically, though, after 600 AD, you'd have to wait until at least the Enlightenment period, and that might be two late or too early...
*unless they're Uber-Protestant and don't have one or more of Spain, Austria or France breathing down their necks...
Susano
Banned
With Italy i mean at least the Apenian peninsuala and a nice northern border and not the Roman Rubicon
Also thank you all for the information i already gained by reading your answers.
Well, if you say you start at 600 you have to be taken into contetx how "Italy" was udnerstood at that time
So, yes, a history-independnat geopgraphcial designation like "United Apennine Peninsula" would have been better, probably.And, well, then youll just need the Langobardic realm (for the Ostrogothic realm its too late, alas) to survive and expand, to have the earlies possible date. The Papacy wasnt that strong back then, not as strong as later, anyways, so possibly the Langobards could even have subdued it.
No surviving Ostrogothic kingdom please im making a TL with a largely united Italy but i need some advice.
The ostrogotic kingdom will be a nice alpine kingdom
But then were to put the lombards? hmm Bohemia
The ostrogotic kingdom will be a nice alpine kingdom
But then were to put the lombards? hmm Bohemia
No surviving Ostrogothic kingdom please im making a TL with a largely united Italy but i need some advice.
The ostrogotic kingdom will be a nice alpine kingdom
Like Susano said - Uber-Lombards... You'd need to get Spoleto on side soon, then grab the Pentapolis from the Pope to form a land connection, then move on Benevento, Salerno and the other little independent states down there depending on the PoD...
They could manage it eventually, given a couple of wars with the Byzantine Empire for the bits at the boot-toe and -heal of Italy and bashing the Pope a bit...
Actually, an uber-Frankish Empire is more likely to support the Pope by having the Papal States as a fief rather than a direct part of Italy, so your Italy is probably going to have to contend with Francia at least once...
No surviving Ostrogothic kingdom please, I'm making a TL with a largely united Italy but i need some advice.
The ostrogotic kingdom will be a nice alpine kingdom
But then where to put the lombards? hmm Bohemia
*Austria or *Carinthia would be good. They'd be close to where they were before migrating into Italy, but they'd stay obscure, and maybe get beaten up by the Bavarii...
All good ideas.
United Appenine Peninsuala under Byzantines.
Papal states buffer between byzantium and Frankish Empire?
Lombard Austria or Ostrogothic Austria i cant decide
Or Surviving Ostrogotic kingdom in Dalmatia.
im actually getting somewhere!
United Appenine Peninsuala under Byzantines.
Papal states buffer between byzantium and Frankish Empire?
Lombard Austria or Ostrogothic Austria i cant decide
Or Surviving Ostrogotic kingdom in Dalmatia.
im actually getting somewhere!