Question: How did admirals control their fleets in ancient times

Thinking about POD with ancient naval battles (Salamis, Actium etc.), how did admirals control all their ships during battle when a battle had hundreds of ships, plus the ships had no real height to them to be able to see far. I never read anything about a flag system at that time (unlike age of sail).

Maybe your close enough to just yell.

It seems like you would have to have some general plan before hand and then events took over, or individual ships or squadrons would just have to make their own decision.
 

ar-pharazon

Banned
That's a good question.

I'd think they'd have some sort of message system.

One thing that probably did help is that naval battles usually took place close to the coast and often hugged near the coast.

I'd think that in the Roman era for example you'd have flags or standards of some kind.
 
The thing to keep in mind is that battles are a lot less controled than many people realize, even in modern day conflicts. Commanders would just love the degree of control one has in, say, total war games.

But to answer your question, planing beforehand was key, as communication is limited and unreliable. I think there was an ancient 'Semaphore', but that method is slow and not very apt to quick changes in plan to capitalize on situations (or escape as necessary), hence it was key to have well trained and experienced captains to fill the gaps a commander just couldn't fill.

Yelling at other ships isn't practicable in battle, though i wouldn't be surprised if they had 'horns' for individual ships to hail each other in calmer circumstances
 
A lot depends on the size of the fleet but preparation and experience probably accounted for a lot where message systems were impractical.
 

ar-pharazon

Banned
Yeah I suspect that so long as it wasn't a surprise engagement and there was a pre battle plan or strategy-the commander would give the various ship captains and officers wide latitude to execute the broader objective as was necessary.
 
Even semi modern. Certainly even at Trafalgar, once the British were committed to cutting the French line, once the ships were among the French the British were committed to winning or losing badly. It would be hard to signal a retreat and people see it.

The ancients don't even have Telescopes to help see.

At Actium Anthony was able to gather a number ships with him to retreat, but the rest were pretty much on their own and defeated (after the Egyptians left unexpectedly).

Salamis, Xerxes could just watch on shore while his ships, at disadvantage were just beaten. Even though it seems after the initial meeting it would be wise for his admirals to say 'retreat and reform at point X', they evidently just couldn't.
 
Salamis, Xerxes could just watch on shore while his ships, at disadvantage were just beaten. Even though it seems after the initial meeting it would be wise for his admirals to say 'retreat and reform at point X', they evidently just couldn't.

Wasn't the reason the Persians were stuck at Salamis is because the Greeks pinned them in, preventing escape?
 
Wasn't the reason the Persians were stuck at Salamis is because the Greeks pinned them in, preventing escape?
By that point, there were so many ships crowded in the narrow straits, their formation broken up already, that no such movement was possible even if the way was open.

There were a few methods for controlling galley fleets. Agreed upon signals, like raising a gilded shield up high to signal a general advance, were used by Ptolemy and Demetrius the Besieger at the Battle of Salamis No Not That One; in the Renaissance, you had fast sail-and-oar vessels likes brigantines and fustas to carry orders to extreme ends of the line; the fleet was divided up into smaller wings, which facilitated greater control by the subordinate commanders, who had trumpet, sail, flag, cannon, and lantern signals to aid them. 54 seems to have been the maximum number of galleys you can get in line abreast in a squadron before the accordion affect makes them completely impossible to control. The main means of control though was for each squadron to follow the movements of its flagship; it's not that different than the basis of Spartan formation drill: follow the man in front of you.
 
Flags were popular. In fact, I think the reason commanding ships are called flagships is that they used to literally flag orders. Fortunately for WW2 and later commanders, radio meant the commanders had a very good control over their fleets. The only reason an order couldn't be executed is if it is physically impossible (we can't fire, turret 2 has too many of its gun crew killed so reloading is impossible at the momment), the order can't be given (what? I can't hear you. Commander, is your radio working?), or unwillingness to use radio (we need to maintain radio silence since the enemy broke our encryption. So commander, I really hope your plan you gave us in port goes according to plan).
 
Flags were popular. In fact, I think the reason commanding ships are called flagships is that they used to literally flag orders. Fortunately for WW2 and later commanders, radio meant the commanders had a very good control over their fleets. The only reason an order couldn't be executed is if it is physically impossible (we can't fire, turret 2 has too many of its gun crew killed so reloading is impossible at the momment), the order can't be given (what? I can't hear you. Commander, is your radio working?), or unwillingness to use radio (we need to maintain radio silence since the enemy broke our encryption. So commander, I really hope your plan you gave us in port goes according to plan).

Don't forget that they also had ligts they could use to communicate visually if they couldn't use radio. Obviously that has the same drawbacks of other visual systems
 
It's not from antiquity, but in the Rennaissance and Early Modern periods, galley fleets were controlled with a very sophisticated system of flags and lanterns. Generally, commanders' ships were large and equipped with a big signal lantern on the stern (seriously, I've seen one in the Arsenale in Venice and it was substantially bigger than me, and I stand well over 6 feet) hence why the type of galley often used by commanders was called a lanterna
 
It's not from antiquity, but in the Rennaissance and Early Modern periods, galley fleets were controlled with a very sophisticated system of flags and lanterns. Generally, commanders' ships were large and equipped with a big signal lantern on the stern (seriously, I've seen one in the Arsenale in Venice and it was substantially bigger than me, and I stand well over 6 feet) hence why the type of galley often used by commanders was called a lanterna
Lantern galleys weren't strictly for command purposes, but would also serve simply as tactical focal points, with extra beefy complements and armaments; many flagships and vice-flagships were not lantern galleys, nor were all lantern galleys flagships.
 

Kaze

Banned
Colored flags, semaphore, lanterns, and drums (or trumpets) can direct an ancient fleet.
 
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