Question: German Divisions in France 1941-1942

Reading around on the internet I have seen people on Forums saying there were anywhere between 15 to 32 understrength German divisions in France in 1941. MY question is how many were there and how many would the Germans have to pull out where it would lead to insurrection or a possible British (and perhaps American) attack in 1942?
 
I've never seen this one addressed in depth. Buried somewhere on another forum is a bit of research for the 1942 OBs & a effort to game out the first thirty days of such a invasion. But, that did not examine the broad picture or the long term outcomes. Generally there is a lot of 'discussion' without much interms of detailed research. I have only a few fragments to offer.

One is there was almost nothing in terms of armored, mechanized, or motorized German formations in the west. The only 1941 OB I've turned up shows two "Panzer Brigades" west of the Rhine. All but four infantry divisions are shown as Static or fortress, and the "mobile" divisions seem to depend on horse draught. Across the Channel in 41 there were a dozen field divisions, but less than half were trained or properly equipped. How well trained or equipped can be debated as well.

In the 1941 air battles over France the Germans won some noteable tactical victories. The RAF Rodeo & Circus operations lacked the ability to force the Germans to fight. They were opposed only when the Germans could pick favorable conditions, so they failed. However German air strength in the west was weak & not up to a stand up fight. heavy reinforcements in aircraft and pilots would be needed. The RAF had the long term advantage in terms of supporting a ground campaign.

As before, there is room here for a lot more research.
 
How many more divisions do the Germans need to succeed in Barbarossa, for the matter? And we assume that logistics aren't an issue, but this is asb worthy.

What is ASB? This thread has nothing to do with Barbarossa. I was thinking more about if the Germans under-defended France and this entices the Allies to attack early. Without breaking the back of the Luftwaffe, it might not work because if there are less soldiers in France, the Germans have more reserves in Germany and in Russia, which can simply be sent back by train into France and contain the situation.
 
Reading around on the internet I have seen people on Forums saying there were anywhere between 15 to 32 understrength German divisions in France in 1941. MY question is how many were there and how many would the Germans have to pull out where it would lead to insurrection or a possible British (and perhaps American) attack in 1942?

According to Dunn: Second Front Now in June 1941 there were 39 in June 1941, from 3 main groups:

708,709,711,712,715,716,719,319,325 occupation divisions with 2 infantry regiments formed in April 1941; never moved from the west

81,82,83,88,205,208,211,212,215,216,223,225,227,246,339,342 formed in 1939 and used in the east in 1941/2

302,304,306,320,321,327,332,333,335,337,305,323,336,340 occupation divisions with 3 infantry regiments formed in November 1940, eventually used in the east in 1943
 

Deleted member 1487

I've never seen this one addressed in depth. Buried somewhere on another forum is a bit of research for the 1942 OBs & a effort to game out the first thirty days of such a invasion. But, that did not examine the broad picture or the long term outcomes. Generally there is a lot of 'discussion' without much interms of detailed research. I have only a few fragments to offer.

One is there was almost nothing in terms of armored, mechanized, or motorized German formations in the west. The only 1941 OB I've turned up shows two "Panzer Brigades" west of the Rhine. All but four infantry divisions are shown as Static or fortress, and the "mobile" divisions seem to depend on horse draught. Across the Channel in 41 there were a dozen field divisions, but less than half were trained or properly equipped. How well trained or equipped can be debated as well.

In the 1941 air battles over France the Germans won some noteable tactical victories. The RAF Rodeo & Circus operations lacked the ability to force the Germans to fight. They were opposed only when the Germans could pick favorable conditions, so they failed. However German air strength in the west was weak & not up to a stand up fight. heavy reinforcements in aircraft and pilots would be needed. The RAF had the long term advantage in terms of supporting a ground campaign.

As before, there is room here for a lot more research.

I thought 10th Panzer was in occupation in France before moving to Tunisia.

Turns out yes it was:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10th_Panzer_Division_(Wehrmacht)#History
It was held in reserve at Dieppe
 

Deleted member 1487

In 1942, not 1941.

Also refitting in France in the summer of 1942 were 6th and 7th Panzer and 1st and 2nd SS Panzer.
Right, I thought we were talking about 1942, because the US wasn't in the war and British was still recovering from its defeats in 1940 and was fully committed to the Mediterranean in 1941, so couldn't afford to invade France. Besides north Africa they had East Africa to worry about, Iraq, Iran, the Balkans, and Crete. There was nothing left to invade with until 1942 and Dieppe was their high water mark for that. It really was not feasible to invade until 1943 and that would mean not launching Torch, which leaves the Afrika Korps and 5th Panzer army intact and available for operations.
 

Deleted member 1487

The OP asks about both years. This will be tricky here as folks need to read and write clearly which year is addressed ;)
Gotcha, I thought because 1941 was not a viable invasion year we were solely addressing 1942.
 
In 1942, not 1941.

Also refitting in France in the summer of 1942 were 6th and 7th Panzer and 1st and 2nd SS Panzer.

Those were touched briefly by the start of Operation Torch in late October 1942. Part of the deception cover was a story fed to the Germans that the fleet assemblying in the UK was a invasion force aimed at France. (Another was it was a reinforcement convoy for Egypt.) When the invasion fleet - the 'Western Task Force' set out the Germans prudently alerted all for Pz Div & their corps HQ, ordering them to assembly areas in the interior located to intercept any invasion force trying to penetrate the interior or besiege a port. Once the invasion scare ceased they went back to their training camps. I've often wondered how well trained and equipped the two SS were at the moment. They had just been authorized the previous summer and were still working up. The histories of the 6th & 7th Pz Div indicate they were a lot further along in their refit/retraining.
 
According to Dunn: Second Front Now in June 1941 there were 39 in June 1941, from 3 main groups:

708,709,711,712,715,716,719,319,325 occupation divisions with 2 infantry regiments formed in April 1941; never moved from the west

81,82,83,88,205,208,211,212,215,216,223,225,227,246,339,342 formed in 1939 and used in the east in 1941/2

302,304,306,320,321,327,332,333,335,337,305,323,336,340 occupation divisions with 3 infantry regiments formed in November 1940, eventually used in the east in 1943

Based squarely upon the numbers used (in the 700s) it appears these divisions were of little practical fighting value. Were there any regiments are equipment that could have been better use elsewhere (i.e. Yugoslavia or occupation duties in the East?) It seems to me that Germany could have pulled many of these men out and perhaps put down partisan movements better in the Balkans and in Poland. They would have had to hit a very low number of men to invite a British or American attack, and if they did, between 41-43 the Germans would probably be able to rush in reserves and mobile units, and then push the Allies back into the sea. I guess I am envisioning a spoiling move of sorts.
 
Tabletop or by modding a "grognard" video game?

Old school map with little cardboard square pieces, & charts. I'd probablly use Vassal for a cyberboard, assuming there is time to do all the work modifying or creating the component files. Generally I modify a existing game as that is faster than starting from scratch. I did the 'video games' with the AI for a decade, but my eyes give me a lot of trouble after a short time 'on screen'.
 
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