Question: Different Balkans

JJohnson

Banned
Would there be a way for the Balkans to evolve differently, such that:

Italy today holds what we called the Austrian Littoral and Trieste, and possibly also Dalmatia as majority Italian.
Austria today holds its OTL territory, plus Rijeke, the "Sudeten" territory from Czechia, an Slovenia, as majority Austrian.

My question would be how to get the Italians and Austrians to settle those territories over where they did settle (Lower Styria and Karinthia/Karniola over Siebenbergen, for example), so that they could then reasonably claim them as national territory in the 20th century. Or, barring that, have the entirety of Styria and Karinthia remain in Austria as majority Austrian territory.
 

Delvestius

Banned
Fewer pressures from the Asian nomads would allow the Germans to expand southward, prevent too much slavic incursion and keep Slovenia and Illyria Romance speakers but they would probably evolve their own languages after a few centuries. The Magyars might stop somewhere around the Crimea, and the rest of the Balkans would stay Greek. I always loved this scenario because we'd get a true Hellenic language family.
 
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Looks to me like what you need is no Habsburg Empire, but a focused Austrian state (no imperial crown but unification of the duchies) and a continued rivalry with Venice which allows Venice to continue with control over Zara etc.

They clash, and it can resolve like you say.

Cat!
 

JJohnson

Banned
Fewer pressures from the Asian nomads would allow the Germans to expand southward, prevent too much slavic incursion and keep Slovenia and Illyria Romance speakers but they would probably evolve their own languages after a few centuries. The Magyars might stop somewhere around the Crimea, and the rest of the Balkans would stay Greek. I always loved this scenario because we'd get a true Hellenic language family.

Any Asian nomads in particular?

If this map is accurate, Poland and "Hungary" would be where our Ukraine is. The only question then is, how does this Europe evolve without Poles, Belarussians, Ukrainians, South Slavs, and Czechs putting pressure on the French, Germans, Italians, and Greeks. Would the Byzantines survive or still crash? Crusades?

Going that early can be exciting, certainly, though capturing the possible ramifications can be hard.

Which Germanic tribes would push into where?
 

Delvestius

Banned
Any Asian nomads in particular?

If this map is accurate, Poland and "Hungary" would be where our Ukraine is. The only question then is, how does this Europe evolve without Poles, Belarussians, Ukrainians, South Slavs, and Czechs putting pressure on the French, Germans, Italians, and Greeks. Would the Byzantines survive or still crash? Crusades?

Going that early can be exciting, certainly, though capturing the possible ramifications can be hard.

Which Germanic tribes would push into where?

Well yeh, the Huns. And other Turkic groups like the Avars, Alans, Pechenegs..

The Byzantines would probably survive until the present day, or at least have a greater ability to resist any Islamic assault in future centuries. The large migrations of Slavs and Germans due to Nomad incursions happened 400 years earlier than this map though, so the Holy Roman Kingdom and the peoples it united were still not a thing.

Central Europe was still divided into pagan tribes, and with no pressure from the east to force them west then there's nothing from stopping them from going both east and west, probably holding along the Danube with the occasional forays into Greek speaking lands across the river, and eventually claiming the parts you want to be Germanic speaking. Without pressure from the Huns the Goths wouldn't split up into two tribes and may be strong enough to do this, especially if Vandals move south instead of east as well. The Saxons Are kind of in a position where I don't see them migrating, just expanding and forming the basis of modern Germany if they aren't conquered (or even if they are, as in OTL) by the Franks.

The Slavs would be centered around Russia and the Baltic Sea with the Magyars (Hungarians) settling around Crimea.
 
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JJohnson

Banned
Hmm. How about this scenario:

8th Century - the Azar Khanate is defeated, with the Goths in Italy taking over the territory, settling the region our Magyars would've taken. Spreading in the region, the Czech Kingdom of Bohemia, a Kingdom of Great Moravia also form, though Moravia falls under expanding northern migrations of the Goths, who here are in communion with Rome. Moravia's rulers were much like the Goths in Iberia in this world, speaking a separate language from the populace. Without the Slavic invasions, OTL Montenegro is an Italic-speaking Dalmatia
9th-10th century - Magyars stay in eastern Ukraine region, acting as a buffer, protecting the Crimean Goth state, which survived in what we would call "western Ukraine." They here defeated the Pechenegs. Some claiming Visigothic heritage leave Iberia for Pannonia, the Gothic Kingdom. Early Poland forms near the Baltic as OTL. Bulgaria forms in OTL Krasnodar/Rostov. Bulgaria becomes slavicized and will speak a south-Slavic dialect that's midway between OTL Ukrainian and Russian. Due to internal weakness caused by wars with Eastern Frankia, Moravia falls to the
11-15th century - Byzantine Empire wanes, but Constantinople doesn't get sacked in the 4th Crusade. It falls to the Turks in 1483, but the Gotho-Turkic war from 1488-1497 prevents them from solidifying their hold. The south Gothic kingdom Thracia had before converted to Eastern Orthodox Christianity, and held a number of Greek refugees from the Turks. King Theodoric XI, allied with Romanians, whose language had seen quite a bit of Gothic influence, and drove the Turks out of Greek Thrace. This Turkic War brought Pannonia (Gothic), Dalmatia (Italic) and Illyria (Italic, north of Dalmatia), and Lombardy (Germanic) identity to the fore.
16-17th century - most of Greece is now Turkish in the Ottoman Empire, but several successive Turkish Wars push the Ottomans out of Dalmatia, Albania, and Lombardy (Slovenia), but unfortunately not Greece. Poland-Lithuania spreads east, while Teutonic Knights have germanized the Duchy of Prussia. Silesia is Austrian territory at this point. Crimea's Gothic population has settled its territory as OTL (Crimea, Kherson, up to Cherkasy). Romania conquered what we call "Odessa." Magyars are not part of the Tsardom of Russia in this timeline, but Russia does begin pushing through into the Ottoman territory in Georgia and Anatolia to get warm water ports.
18th Century - Magyars, Bulgars, and Russians push the Turks out of Asia in a series of wars, while the South (Thracian) Goths, Romanians, Albanians, and Dalmatians push them out of European Greece. The Anatolian Turks face a series of plagues that dampen their armies, limiting the ability of the Ottoman Empire to respond. Italy is still disunited, but the papacy supports the Goths, Pannonian Goths, Lombardians, and West Hungarians (who settled east of Carpathian mountains and never moved west into OTL Hungary, north of the Crimean Goths), Greeks, Illyrians, and Dalmatians in driving them out of Europe by 1758 as part of the Seven Year War. Greece is made independent again. Constantinople is controlled by the Goths until 1807, when a series of Greek revolts finally forces the South Goths to restore it to Greece.
19th century - Greece's population expands with its restored independence and trade with the rest of Europe, as opposed to the Ottoman stagnation across the Aegean. This Greece becomes a more industrial nation, with an influx of capital from the large empires of France and Britain. In the Megali Wars of 1812-15, 1833-36, and 1848-53, the Greeks push across the bay and gain the Dardanelles, Smyrna, and Ephesus. The next war, the 'Crimean War' erupts when the Turks attack the Crimean Kingdom for their role in the 1833 Greek War, causing the Russians to attack the Turks, as 'defenders of Orthodoxy', drawing in the British, French, Goths, and even Germans. It lasts from 1854-57, with the result being the Russians lose, but still secured the Christian Armenian state, with Black sea access. British/French success renewed the patriotic fervor of their empires, leading to renewed imperial efforts in Africa, South America, and in the Pacific.

That's a very very rough outline. Here, Europe is Romance, Germanic, and Greek. Where we have Ukraine, they have Hungary and Crimea; Bulgaria is southeast of that. As for likelihood, no idea. But it sounds interesting.

Hungary: bounded on the east by the Don and west by the Dneiper
Crimea (Gothic state): OTL Crimean Khanate, bounded west by OTL Moldova, north to OTL Cherkasy
Bulgaria: bounded west by Kuban River flowing into the Lake Meotida (Sea of Azov), and to the Black Sea from Krasnodar southwest (bordering Russia). From the Kuban's northernmost point, north and including Azov from Rostov.
Romania: roughly the Old Kingdom of 1881, plus Moldova; speaks a Romanian influenced by Gothica, with pre-noun definite articles, and comparative/superlatives like Germanic languages.
Lombardy: roughly Slovenia and Rijekia, minus German Austria's claims
Dalmatia: roughly OTL Montenegro/Serbia, speaking a Greek dialect heavily influenced by Romance languages
Illyria: roughly Napoleon's Illyrian Provinces (Croatia, Bosnia/Herzegovina); speaks a Romance language roughly between that of Romanian and Italian, influenced by Greek, in that it keeps a genitive case.
Pannonia (name?; Gothic state): roughly the Carpathian basin, where OTL Hungarian Kingdom would be
East Saxony: roughly Slovakia; without Slavic invasion, Germans invaded here rather than Siebenburgen.
South Gothic Kingdom (name?): roughly OTL Bulgaria
Germany: Prussia OTL up to Holstein, other German Empire territory. Unifying state may have been Brandenburg, Saxony, or Hanover. OTL Prussia didn't exist. This is a more mercantile/capitalist state.
Poland: Congress Poland, or Second Republic territory minus what's in Germany.
Austria (South Germany?): German Austria's claims, including South Tirol and Pressburg.
Czechia: OTL Czech republic minus German Austrian claims.
Belarus: parts of 17th century Lithuania (Vitebsk, Smolensk, Mstsislaw)
Galicia (what we'd call Ukrainians): border of Belarus, Poland, down to Hungary, roughly.
 
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