Question: Austronesian contact with Americas

There is some debated hard evidence, and more circumstantial evidence, about Austronesian, specifically Polynesian, Pre-Columbian contact with the Americas.
The range of this evidence is quite large, but mostly problematic. As far as I know, the chicken bones found in Chile that were originally thought to be of Polynesian origin are now supposed to be European. Also, the closest bit of land were the Polynesians surely is Easter Island - and from there, Chile is arguably near the extreme range of viable reachability with Polynesian tech.
Yeah, I know of Thor Heyerdhal's trip from Peru to Tahiti - but even if similar trips happened ITL, we can assume they were marginal events, i.e. they were about some explorers or very small groups rather than actual colonising expeditions.
OTOH, we know that th Polynesians got the sweet potato from America at some point and somehow - while they didn't apparently leave any of their own crops in the New World; there's evidence of Polynesian coconuts in Tropical America (namely, in Panama and Colombia IIRC) that is likely to be pre-Columbian, but I don't know whether it was a domesticate for Native Americans there (and of course, coconuts can float in the ocean and spread without direct human contact).
Other hints of Austronesian presence in the Americas have been suggested in southern California.
However, from what I found in the Web and in my readings, places and times of contact, if contact occurred at all, are sorely il-defined.
So, what are the areas of the American Pacific coast where the Polynesians are more likely to have arrived, when, and to what impact?
What consequences are likely to be if earlier or more sustained contact happens, and what circumstances can be conducive of such?
The sounder proposal, intuitively, seems to be some low level exchange between Easter Island and South-Central coast of Chile, in almost immediately Pre-Columbian times.
Easter Island, however, was pretty damn isolated and marginal to the rest of Polynesia. Was it a viable route for the spread of sweet potato, for instance?
 
There is some debated hard evidence, and more circumstantial evidence, about Austronesian, specifically Polynesian, Pre-Columbian contact with the Americas.
The range of this evidence is quite large, but mostly problematic. As far as I know, the chicken bones found in Chile that were originally thought to be of Polynesian origin are now supposed to be European. Also, the closest bit of land were the Polynesians surely is Easter Island - and from there, Chile is arguably near the extreme range of viable reachability with Polynesian tech.
Yeah, I know of Thor Heyerdhal's trip from Peru to Tahiti - but even if similar trips happened ITL, we can assume they were marginal events, i.e. they were about some explorers or very small groups rather than actual colonising expeditions.
OTOH, we know that th Polynesians got the sweet potato from America at some point and somehow - while they didn't apparently leave any of their own crops in the New World; there's evidence of Polynesian coconuts in Tropical America (namely, in Panama and Colombia IIRC) that is likely to be pre-Columbian, but I don't know whether it was a domesticate for Native Americans there (and of course, coconuts can float in the ocean and spread without direct human contact).
Other hints of Austronesian presence in the Americas have been suggested in southern California.
However, from what I found in the Web and in my readings, places and times of contact, if contact occurred at all, are sorely il-defined.
So, what are the areas of the American Pacific coast where the Polynesians are more likely to have arrived, when, and to what impact?
What consequences are likely to be if earlier or more sustained contact happens, and what circumstances can be conducive of such?
The sounder proposal, intuitively, seems to be some low level exchange between Easter Island and South-Central coast of Chile, in almost immediately Pre-Columbian times.
Easter Island, however, was pretty damn isolated and marginal to the rest of Polynesia. Was it a viable route for the spread of sweet potato, for instance?

Intresting subject. I guess Central Chile or southern Perú seems the most likely candidates.

By 1470 (probably earlier), Mapuches in Central and Southern Chile had adopted the andean agricultural pacage (potatoes, maize, quinoa, ají, and other stuff) and were rearing llamas. All of this would be very usefull for Polynesians. So was metalurgy, deeply advanced in Western South America

The Mapuche, meanwhile, could use a lot polynesian shipbuilding techniques, specialy if applied in the area near Chiloe, where islands and wood are abundant. There wouldn be much use of such techniques in Central and Northern Chile, since there was nowhere to get to by sea. It might be usefull for fishing, of course, but they already had fishing boats...

If Polynesians bring with them pigs or anomals of their own, it would be very usefull. The same if they bring in the alleged writting system developped in Eastern Island, since South America lacked writting, and such a notion would be extremely useful (more to the Incas than the Mapuche, though).
 
Intresting subject. I guess Central Chile or southern Perú seems the most likely candidates.

By 1470 (probably earlier), Mapuches in Central and Southern Chile had adopted the andean agricultural pacage (potatoes, maize, quinoa, ají, and other stuff) and were rearing llamas. All of this would be very usefull for Polynesians. So was metalurgy, deeply advanced in Western South America

The Mapuche, meanwhile, could use a lot polynesian shipbuilding techniques, specialy if applied in the area near Chiloe, where islands and wood are abundant. There wouldn be much use of such techniques in Central and Northern Chile, since there was nowhere to get to by sea. It might be usefull for fishing, of course, but they already had fishing boats...

If Polynesians bring with them pigs or anomals of their own, it would be very usefull. The same if they bring in the alleged writting system developped in Eastern Island, since South America lacked writting, and such a notion would be extremely useful (more to the Incas than the Mapuche, though).

As far as know, pigs weren't likely to make it to South America at all. They didn't make it to New Zealand, which was closer.
Metallurgy would be indeed extremely useful to Polynesians, if only they could figure out any source of metal at all, which seems to be a tad hard in Central/Western Polynesia.
By the way, where is the southernmost part of coastal Pacific South America where sweet potato was grown?

EDIT: Polynesians could bring chicken to South America pretty easily however. That could be quite a big deal. Was turkey used in the Andean package? As far as I know it wasn't.
South American guinea pigs, otoh, might be a valuable microlivestock for Polynesians.
 
I would say the biggest advancement the Polynesians could bring is their sailing package, the outrigger canoes, catamarans, crab sail and navigation system. The Andean people who already had a sailing tradition would be quick to absorb this. Historically there had been limited contact between the civilizations of the Andes and Mesoamerica. So sustained contact by way of sail would enable the exchange of a lot of other things. Written language in South America, lama and potato in North America for example.

For Mesoamericans, sailing would also enable them to make contact with the pre-farming cultures of California, which is isolated by a desert between them. If this sailing package spread to the Caribbean coast, there would be more contact between the Mesoamericans and Amazonian peoples, the Caribbean islanders, and potentially north to the Mississippians.

In South America I could see sailing taking over some of the role of the Inca roads. It's more efficient to move cargo by sea than on mountain roads. A very different empire could emerge than the very mountain centric Incan one. Perhaps Chan Chan would be the political powerhouse of South America. Certainly the Andean agricultural package would spread to Chile faster.

Also chicken is going to be a game changer. It's not just a source of meat and eggs, but fertilizer as well. Chicken manure is among the best fertilizer there is, far superior to cow or pig manure. If they learn to make use of it they would have a significant agricultural boost.

For Polynesians I think the biggest change is knowing about the existence of the Americas and making it a destination rather than looking for other islands to settle.
 
I would say the biggest advancement the Polynesians could bring is their sailing package, the outrigger canoes, catamarans, crab sail and navigation system. The Andean people who already had a sailing tradition would be quick to absorb this. Historically there had been limited contact between the civilizations of the Andes and Mesoamerica. So sustained contact by way of sail would enable the exchange of a lot of other things. Written language in South America, lama and potato in North America for example.

For Mesoamericans, sailing would also enable them to make contact with the pre-farming cultures of California, which is isolated by a desert between them. If this sailing package spread to the Caribbean coast, there would be more contact between the Mesoamericans and Amazonian peoples, the Caribbean islanders, and potentially north to the Mississippians.

In South America I could see sailing taking over some of the role of the Inca roads. It's more efficient to move cargo by sea than on mountain roads. A very different empire could emerge than the very mountain centric Incan one. Perhaps Chan Chan would be the political powerhouse of South America. Certainly the Andean agricultural package would spread to Chile faster.

Also chicken is going to be a game changer. It's not just a source of meat and eggs, but fertilizer as well. Chicken manure is among the best fertilizer there is, far superior to cow or pig manure. If they learn to make use of it they would have a significant agricultural boost.

For Polynesians I think the biggest change is knowing about the existence of the Americas and making it a destination rather than looking for other islands to settle.

There is a problem of timing I guess.
Recent research suggests strongly a very short cronology for expansion into easternmost Polynesia (and New Zealand for that matter). Although I think there are some issues with this model (including questions about the spread of sweet potato), you can only argue with radiocarbon so much. If Easter Island is settled in the second half of the thirteenth century, sustained contact with the Americas won't start before 1300 AD at earliest. It's plenty of time to impact the Andes, if the "first contact" happens there, but Mesoamerica?
However, as said, the Old World coconuts in Panama may indicate that Polynesian got in that general vicinity.
 
I would say the biggest advancement the Polynesians could bring is their sailing package, the outrigger canoes, catamarans, crab sail and navigation system. The Andean people who already had a sailing tradition would be quick to absorb this. Historically there had been limited contact between the civilizations of the Andes and Mesoamerica. So sustained contact by way of sail would enable the exchange of a lot of other things. Written language in South America, lama and potato in North America for example.

Agreed, with some reservations. (1) Our time-line contact between Peru and Mexico has probably been underestimated. As you note, the people of coastal Peru and especially coastal Ecuador (as opposed to Peruvian highlands) had a reasonably advanced sailing tradition, and considerable contact with western Mexico. Unfortunately, the Spanish conquest of the areas of Mexico they probably had the most contact with was brutal even by Spanish standards of the day and poorly documented, so little is known about the cultures involved. The importance of Western Mexico is just starting to be recognized and explored. (2) The distinction between coastal and highland Peru isn't just pedantic. Llamas were primarily highland animals and historically didn't do well in the humid lowlands where they would have had to ship from. That wouldn't make llamas in North America impossible, just more difficult.

For Mesoamericans, sailing would also enable them to make contact with the pre-farming cultures of California, which is isolated by a desert between them.

That's not impossible, but the Baja peninsula makes it difficult. The natural progression would be up the coast of Mexico, on the other side of the peninsula, with not a lot in Baja California to attract Mexican cultures.

In South America I could see sailing taking over some of the role of the Inca roads. It's more efficient to move cargo by sea than on mountain roads. A very different empire could emerge than the very mountain centric Incan one. Perhaps Chan Chan would be the political powerhouse of South America. Certainly the Andean agricultural package would spread to Chile faster.

Maybe, but something would have to change the military dynamics between the Incas and the coast. I actually did a rather long scenario on Mexico and Peru having more extensive contact (without the Polynesian factor) in my Alternate History Newsletter 12 or 13 years ago. I may have also posted it here, though I'm not sure of that. For what it is worth, the newsletter scenario link is: http://www.dalecozort.com/AHNewsletter/Aug00/perumexico.htm
 
By the way, the Ecuadorian culture behind much of the trade with Western Mexico was called the Manteños. I found a good site on them a while back, but can't find it again.
 

katchen

Banned
If the Polynesians do make it across to Peru, Ecuador and Panama, they'll be going back home with quite a large Columbian Exchange. They'll be giving Chimau and Montero Taro, Breadfruit and Coconuts and maybe pigs and outrigger navigation. In return, they get potatoes and corn (good for New Zealand and will make it possible to cultivate South and Stewart Island and maybe even colonize Australia), bronze and obsidian (definitely useful for war weapons, again possibly making possible Australia colonization, quipus, if they stay long and guinea pigs. And balsa rafts for a trip back which will make it possible to carry back llamas and alpacas. Yes, balsa rafts with centerboard navigation IS feasible on the open Pacific--and you can put llamas on a balsa raft, which you can't on an outrigger canoe.
Also, if those canoes can reach all the way across the Pacific, someone from Chimau will quickly figure out to carry them across the Andes in what is Ecuador OTL and launch them down the Amazon. Not very hard to paddle down the Amazon, and once one catches the Equatorial counter-current, such a canoe CAN reach Africa. And eventually, Morocco and Spain. Perhaps before Columbus. ;)
 
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