Question about the Lebanese Civil War

Just a question about it- I've always been fascinated about that particular conflict, since it tore up a nation so diverse (almost artificially) as Yugoslavia, and like WWII Yugoslavia left it with so many different and diverse factions killing each other. Not to make light of it, but it would make a very fascinating game (just as a simulation of Somalia would be).

In Spy Game, it's mentioned that there are seventeen sects fighting each other there. Is that number close to accurate at all? I'm assuming that Robert Redford's character was talking about the major ones.

Also, was Lebanon the most plausible chance (with a 20th century POD) for a Christian state to have existed in the Middle East?
 

Darkest

Banned
Ah, the Lebanon Civil War... what a research project. You know, before that tore up the country, Lebanon was a near first-rate country, a Switzerland or Costa Rica of the Middle East. A marvelous could-have-been.

I know there were five major power groups (The Druze, Christians, Sunnis, Sh'ias, and the Palestinians). But I am sure there were a large number of other small factions. Everyone bidding for power... you are right, it would make an excellent game as horrible as it sounds.
 
Darkest90 said:
Ah, the Lebanon Civil War... what a research project. You know, before that tore up the country, Lebanon was a near first-rate country, a Switzerland or Costa Rica of the Middle East. A marvelous could-have-been.

I know there were five major power groups (The Druze, Christians, Sunnis, Sh'ias, and the Palestinians). But I am sure there were a large number of other small factions. Everyone bidding for power... you are right, it would make an excellent game as horrible as it sounds.
Amal and Hizbollah were both Shia miltias but I seem to recall that they regulary fought each other
 
Then there are the Israelis, their supporters of the SLA (South Lebanese Army), the Syrians (left last year), Arafat's PLO (Sunni); does Hamas operate in Libanon too?
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
The Christians also split up into different groups. The biggest among them was the Kataeb, also known as the Phalange, which became the Lebanese Forces after the assassination of Gemayel. They're still around. There were also smaller groups like the Guardians of the Cedars and the Marada Brigades. Most of these were Catholic-dominated; the Orthodox tended to side with the Arab nationalist groups rather than the Christian ones.

Hezbollah is really a successor to Amal; they both coexist today, although Hezbollah managed to break the early momentum that Amal had. Amal is closer to Syria whereas Hezbollah is closer to Iran, although both have ties to both countries. A number of Shiites and Druze also joined the Independent Nasserist Organization (INO), which was the chief Sunni militia. The Sunnis tended to align themselves with the Palestinians.

The Palestinians (whom we think of as being one militia, the PLO) were really an alphabet soup of competing groups, like the PFLP, the DFLP, the PLF, the PFLP-GC, al-Sa'iqa and ALF (Baathist front organizations). Some of these are still around today.

There were also several ostensibly secular militias, like the Progressive Socialist Party (which represented the Druze) and the Syrian National Socialist Party (which represented Lebanese who wanted to join Greater Syria).
 
Leo Caesius said:
The Christians also split up into different groups. The biggest among them was the Kataeb, also known as the Phalange, which became the Lebanese Forces after the assassination of Gemayel. They're still around. There were also smaller groups like the Guardians of the Cedars and the Marada Brigades. Most of these were Catholic-dominated; the Orthodox tended to side with the Arab nationalist groups rather than the Christian ones.

Hezbollah is really a successor to Amal; they both coexist today, although Hezbollah managed to break the early momentum that Amal had. Amal is closer to Syria whereas Hezbollah is closer to Iran, although both have ties to both countries. A number of Shiites and Druze also joined the Independent Nasserist Organization (INO), which was the chief Sunni militia. The Sunnis tended to align themselves with the Palestinians.

The Palestinians (whom we think of as being one militia, the PLO) were really an alphabet soup of competing groups, like the PFLP, the DFLP, the PLF, the PFLP-GC, al-Sa'iqa and ALF (Baathist front organizations). Some of these are still around today.

There were also several ostensibly secular militias, like the Progressive Socialist Party (which represented the Druze) and the Syrian National Socialist Party (which represented Lebanese who wanted to join Greater Syria).
There's a very good article on the Lebanese Civil War on Wikipedia.com
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Since it already has such a diverse mix of cultures, perhaps the UN could use Lebanon as a place where people from oppressed cultures (or who feel themselves oppressed) could establish colonies.

Kurds, Sikhs, Ulstermen, Kosavars, Chechens, Ainu, Basques, Afrikaners, Maori- the list is endless.

I think we should allow each of these groups, and others, to establish an enclave with several small towns, so as to separate all the warring factions WHILE giving them a homeland of their own. Killing two birds with one stone!
 
Anaxagoras said:
Since it already has such a diverse mix of cultures, perhaps the UN could use Lebanon as a place where people from oppressed cultures (or who feel themselves oppressed) could establish colonies.

Kurds, Sikhs, Ulstermen, Kosavars, Chechens, Ainu, Basques, Afrikaners, Maori- the list is endless.

I think we should allow each of these groups, and others, to establish an enclave with several small towns, so as to separate all the warring factions WHILE giving them a homeland of their own. Killing two birds with one stone!
The trouble is every "opressed" minority has a minority within who follow the path of the bullet and not the ballot box so I could see a Lebanon type war break out again. By Ulstermen do you mean Catholics or Protestants??. If you mean the Protestants I could see them teaming up with the Afrikaaners and the Chechens and Kosovars could form a united front....
 
Max Sinister said:
Then there are the Israelis, their supporters of the SLA (South Lebanese Army), the Syrians (left last year), Arafat's PLO (Sunni); does Hamas operate in Libanon too?
I think they're concentrated in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. They have a presence in Syria and a lot of support in Palestinian refugee camps in Jordan
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Verence said:
The trouble is every "opressed" minority has a minority within who follow the path of the bullet and not the ballot box so I could see a Lebanon type war break out again. By Ulstermen do you mean Catholics or Protestants??. If you mean the Protestants I could see them teaming up with the Afrikaaners and the Chechens and Kosovars could form a united front....

I was joking.
 
Strategos' Risk said:
Not to make light of it, but it would make a very fascinating game (just as a simulation of Somalia would be).

IIRC, there's a Piers Anthony book called Kill-o-Byte that mostly takes place in a Virtual Reality game that simulates the Lebanese Civil War (complete with a l33t gang of Druze and a coding error in the traffic patterns:p ).
 
I was going to start a new thread on Chat, but I might as well use this one instead of wasting more bandwidth.

Now, I understand that Lebanon used to be the Switzerland of the Mideast, with Beirut its Paris, but isn't it the dumbest idea for a country ever? Seventeen religious sects, dozens of ethnicities and cultures, and not a single one has a clear majority? Each sect is a minority?

Anyways, I answer my on question, my research shows that the government recognized seventeen religious sects; not necessarily factions during the war:

5 Muslim: Shia, Sunni, Druze, Isma'ilite, Alawite

11 Christian: 6 Catholic (Maronite Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Syrian Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Roman Catholic, Chaldaean Catholic), 4 Orthodox (Armenian Orthodox, Syrian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox), 1 Protestant

1 Judaism

That is insane.

And for posterity, in Piers Anthony's Killobyte (a thoroughly quaint book, showing the 80s' pollyanna view of VR and Anthony's own weird ignorance of diabetes) lists eight warring major factions of the Lebanese war:

Sunni
Shia- the Amal and HezbollahDruze
Maronite Christians- Phalange
Palestine- PLO
Israel
Syria
 
I was going to start a new thread on Chat, but I might as well use this one instead of wasting more bandwidth.

Now, I understand that Lebanon used to be the Switzerland of the Mideast, with Beirut its Paris, but isn't it the dumbest idea for a country ever? Seventeen religious sects, dozens of ethnicities and cultures, and not a single one has a clear majority? Each sect is a minority?

I would have to disagree. For many years it worked. Lebanon was a stable, peaceful country and if let alone will continue to be so in the future. people of different religions can live together, there is no need for one to dominate. People are people and tend to get along (something I learnt in Bosnia); its only when the idiots start causing trouble that religion is used to make a mess of things.

I mean, Lebanon used to have the Ministry of Agriculture and defence. To me, a nation that ranks defence as of equal importance to growing food is surely a smart nation.
 

Hashasheen

Banned
I would have to disagree. For many years it worked. Lebanon was a stable, peaceful country and if let alone will continue to be so in the future. people of different religions can live together, there is no need for one to dominate. People are people and tend to get along (something I learnt in Bosnia); its only when the idiots start causing trouble that religion is used to make a mess of things.

I mean, Lebanon used to have the Ministry of Agriculture and defence. To me, a nation that ranks defence as of equal importance to growing food is surely a smart nation.

Lebanese person here, the main reason that we got fucked up, was the fact the christains refused to share power and the money earned. if they had done that, and the PLO had gone into Syria, Saudi Arabi or Iraq after Black September, we would still be the Swtizerland of the Middle East, and Beirut its Paris.
 
Lebanese person here, the main reason that we got fucked up, was the fact the christains refused to share power and the money earned. if they had done that, and the PLO had gone into Syria, Saudi Arabi or Iraq after Black September, we would still be the Swtizerland of the Middle East, and Beirut its Paris.

Thanks for clarifying. I had a feeling it was a bit like that but I was quite young at the time and can't always trust my memory :)
 
Lebanese person here, the main reason that we got fucked up, was the fact the christains refused to share power and the money earned. if they had done that, and the PLO had gone into Syria, Saudi Arabi or Iraq after Black September, we would still be the Swtizerland of the Middle East, and Beirut its Paris.

Your'e quite right but then none of the other countries would really have let the PLO in following Black September - would they! They wouldn't have liked having an autonomous armed force(s) on their territory.
 
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