Question about red italy

Just a question about scenarios where Italy goes red. If there's a red Italy that includes central Italy and Rome, what would most likely happen to the Vatican and the Pope? Would hardcore communists just execute him like the tsar and flatten the vatican and build apartment blocks? Or would they try to co-opt or "get along" with the Catholic Church in order to not lose support among catholics in Italy and elsewhere? Would this decision change depending on the time period in which Italy went red?
 

Cook

Banned
Highly unlikely; the Italian people are quite heavily addicted to the opiate of the masses so the Communist Party would have to tread lightly, at least initially. And the Vatican is an independent country with diplomatic ties throughout the world with nations that Italy has traditionally had strong trade and cultural relations with, something a CP govt would be loath to sever.

With or without Red Army in Italy?
 
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Just a question about scenarios where Italy goes red. If there's a red Italy that includes central Italy and Rome, what would most likely happen to the Vatican and the Pope? Would hardcore communists just execute him like the tsar and flatten the vatican and build apartment blocks? Or would they try to co-opt or "get along" with the Catholic Church in order to not lose support among catholics in Italy and elsewhere? Would this decision change depending on the time period in which Italy went red?

The second choice, most likely, even in the case of a Stalinesque regime (which wouldn't hesitate to poison a Pope to appoint another, obviously).
Absolutely the second in any scenario post-1960, and with wekeaning grip over God's Central Committee :D.
 
I understand the need to respect the catholic beliefs of the population, but it seems like such a glaring failure to combat the opiate of the masses. How could the regime live with itself? I can see tons of bitter infighting about ignoring one of the "juciest targets" in the revolution's war on religion. What about a third option of exiling the pope and the entire catholic hierarchy to some other country and then annexing the territory of the vatican. Spain, Portgugal, France, or somewhere in Latin America could be the new home of the Pope. This too would lead to some infighting still, but not as bad as just leaving the Catholic Church in power in Rome.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Bear in mind that the Vatican wasn't an independent country until 1929, which could have serious effects on how the Pope is treated given the POD. In an extreme case, I could see the Papacy fleeing to Spain.
 
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Post WW2 and into Cold War, there is the allegated Gladio thing (the secret anti-communists efforts in Europe, like Condor(?) in south america), but I am maybe touching conspirationist ground...
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Post WW2 and into Cold War, there is the allegated Gladio thing (the secret anti-communists efforts in Europe, like Condor(?) in south america), but I am maybe touching conspirationist ground...
You're not; Gladio was real, and it did play a role in assisting the DC against the Italian Left.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Would the Red Army be more likely to have him imprisoned or executed?
As in the Soviet Red Army? They wouldn't touch him. Take a look at how the Soviets treated the Patriarch for an idea of how the Popes would be taken care of, only x1000 because the Soviets don't want to piss off Catholics.

Italian revolutionary mobs? They'll leave him alone. They may ransack churches if they are particularly anti-clerical, but they won't touch St. Peters unless they are really radical.
 
It really depends:

-After WW2, as the Communists will take the lead, you'll see energic attempts at reconciliation and cooptation of the Catholics, Italian communists voted in favour of keeping Catholicism as State Religion at the CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY.

Of course the Papacy wouldn't mind, and still go against the PCI, but I don't see "Museums of Atheism" and similar. Possibily, till the 70s we would remain a not-religious but fairly conservative country (as for the DDR, with no abortion until 1972, and also restricted divorce, available only for civil marriages).

-Pre or immediately post-WW2, it all depends on who leads the Revolution. If the leaders are reformist socialists like Turati, they will settle for a modern secularism and juat ignore the Pope. If the leaders are "Massimalisti" or Revolutionary Trade Unionists, things could get very ugly ...
 
The PCI tended to be Eurocommunists rather than tankies so they would have reached an accomodation as Mussolini did. There was an uneasy tolerance of the Catholic Church in Poland with the ruling Communists being unwilling to cause unrest and tolerating Catholism as a sort of safety valve. Catholism was a form of what Orwell called tranferred nationlism in Poland during Russian rule. Italian catholics were often anti clerical and the Communist were moderate so they would tolerate each other
 
Sicily will be a nightmare to impose Communism on. The Mafia will do anything to prevent land reform. If Rome falls to the Reds, you'll see Sicily trying to succeed without doubt. OTL, the Mafia only called off the Sicilian "Independence" movement (half the Mafia telling peasants who to vote for, half terrorism) when it became clear the the Christian Democrats were capable of keeping the far-left out of power. You could see a very nasty situation here. It'll be like Mussolini's war with Mafia, only ten times as bad.
 
The PCI tended to be Eurocommunists rather than tankies so they would have reached an accomodation as Mussolini did. There was an uneasy tolerance of the Catholic Church in Poland with the ruling Communists being unwilling to cause unrest and tolerating Catholism as a sort of safety valve. Catholism was a form of what Orwell called tranferred nationlism in Poland during Russian rule. Italian catholics were often anti clerical and the Communist were moderate so they would tolerate each other

Doubtfull, the real distancing from Moscow begin with the Hungary invasion in 1956, Togliatti was a Stalin Fanboy, in case of victory of the communist we can have a lot of unsanctionated violence by more militant fringe who will be tollerated by the higher up (basically the Emilia-Romagna red triangle but on national scale).
 
Doubtfull, the real distancing from Moscow begin with the Hungary invasion in 1956, Togliatti was a Stalin Fanboy, in case of victory of the communist we can have a lot of unsanctionated violence by more militant fringe who will be tollerated by the higher up (basically the Emilia-Romagna red triangle but on national scale).
In 1956, the PCI very much supported repression, it was only a fringe led by Giolitti and others who deserted, the real rift happened with Prague 1968 ...

I agree on the nation-wide Red Triangle, but I can see normalization in a comparatively short term, by coopting partisans in the new secret police ... the perception that the partisans had been sidelined in favour of the old authorities was an effective part in sparkling revenge feelings.

However, I don't think that the Church would have been a target, Togliatti knew the country and wouldn't risk a civil war without the Red Army on his doors. Most probably, he would try to puppetize / split the Christian Democracy.
 
In 1956, the PCI very much supported repression, it was only a fringe led by Giolitti and others who deserted, the real rift happened with Prague 1968 ...

the hungarian uprising for the PCI was the first really big internal discussion, in that moment party unity prevailed and only a few left but there were the sign of the first trouble in the future, Prague was the classic hair who broke the camel o meglio la goccia che fa traboccare il vaso.

I agree on the nation-wide Red Triangle, but I can see normalization in a comparatively short term, by coopting partisans in the new secret police ... the perception that the partisans had been sidelined in favour of the old authorities was an effective part in sparkling revenge feelings.

However, I don't think that the Church would have been a target, Togliatti knew the country and wouldn't risk a civil war without the Red Army on his doors. Most probably, he would try to puppetize / split the Christian Democracy.

I sostantially agree with your analysis, even if the south i think will be a hard nut to crack with a lot of less communist presence than the North.
Now if the Pod is a 48 victory of the communist well we had a ackward situation, were Togliatti without the red army presence and Stalin unwillingness to help armed revolt (just see Greece) and later with the Tito split must play the democrat statist so he will try at least to mantain civil relationships with the church...tempi interessanti per Don Camillo e Peppone:p
 
The PCI tended to be Eurocommunists rather than tankies so they would have reached an accomodation as Mussolini did.

You're projecting post '68 terms back into 1944. In 1944/45 the decision to bury the guns lead, eventually, to the formation of the Autonomia and the BR—two different senses of maximalists repressed by the parliamentarianism of the PCI.

And, of course, this obscures the role of maximalism in the PCd'I.

yours,
Sam R.
 
You're projecting post '68 terms back into 1944. In 1944/45 the decision to bury the guns lead, eventually, to the formation of the Autonomia and the BR—two different senses of maximalists repressed by the parliamentarianism of the PCI.

And, of course, this obscures the role of maximalism in the PCd'I.

yours,
Sam R.

What? BR and Autonomia had no continuity whatsoever with Communist Partisan Resistance during WWII.
The decision to bury the guns by the PCI lead to no massimalist armed activity in forties and fifties. There where of course revenges on Fascists, but no revolutionary attempt. BR and Autonomia were active in the seventies and the eighties, and were not breakaways from PCI. The party experienced several scissions to its left, most of which, however, never tried armed revolution. The groups that did (in the seventies and eighties) had no direct continuity with communist party.
It is true, however, that PCI was not "Eurocommunist" in the fifties and the sixties, when it used to follow the Soviet lead in most cases.
 
What? BR and Autonomia had no continuity whatsoever with Communist Partisan Resistance during WWII.

I'm not suggesting an organic connection, but a continuity of a maximalist tradition in Italian revolutionary socialism. Chiefly, Quaderni Rossi and thus Autonomia came out of the parliamentary frustration of maximalism in the 11 years to 1956. Similarly, Maoism's acceptance of the need for an ultra-ist position is derived largely from the PC spurning its own internal history of maximalism.

The decision to bury the guns by the PCI lead to no massimalist armed activity in forties and fifties. There where of course revenges on Fascists, but no revolutionary attempt.

Yes, the binding between the PCI and the Cominform/USSR was very tight—up until 1956 delegitimised the PCI in the eyes of its own maximalist members.

BR and Autonomia were active in the seventies and the eighties, and were not breakaways from PCI. The party experienced several scissions to its left, most of which, however, never tried armed revolution. The groups that did (in the seventies and eighties) had no direct continuity with communist party.

As I was trying to note above, the PCI isn't the organisation whose continuity matters; it is the revolutionary Italian working class whose traditions of continuity matter. If the PCI wasn't going to find a way to keep maximalists inside the house (and the PSI did no better), then they're going to work outside. Quite a number of letters to the operaismo newspapers discuss the failure of workers with maximalist positions to find a space in the PCI locally, therefore their turn to workerism.

I'm suggesting that _if_ the PCI managed to keep a better hold over the maximalists in the 1940s and 1950s other than "bury the guns, and don't talk about that," then in the post 1956 conditions the PCI would have been able to keep a hold of the political space that was filled historically by the Maoists and the Workerists.

It is true, however, that PCI was not "Eurocommunist" in the fifties and the sixties, when it used to follow the Soviet lead in most cases.

I am suggesting that the slavish tail-ending of the Soviet Union during the 1940s and 1950s lead to the conditions where the PCI was unable to:
a) control its own maximalists politically, leading to:
b) maximalist members leaving the party quietly, and
c) a failure to recruit members who identify in the tradition of Italian maximalism.

Thus that maximalism came to exist outside the PCI.

yours,
Sam R.
 
I'm not suggesting an organic connection, but a continuity of a maximalist tradition in Italian revolutionary socialism. Chiefly, Quaderni Rossi and thus Autonomia came out of the parliamentary frustration of maximalism in the 11 years to 1956. Similarly, Maoism's acceptance of the need for an ultra-ist position is derived largely from the PC spurning its own internal history of maximalism.



Yes, the binding between the PCI and the Cominform/USSR was very tight—up until 1956 delegitimised the PCI in the eyes of its own maximalist members.



As I was trying to note above, the PCI isn't the organisation whose continuity matters; it is the revolutionary Italian working class whose traditions of continuity matter. If the PCI wasn't going to find a way to keep maximalists inside the house (and the PSI did no better), then they're going to work outside. Quite a number of letters to the operaismo newspapers discuss the failure of workers with maximalist positions to find a space in the PCI locally, therefore their turn to workerism.

I'm suggesting that _if_ the PCI managed to keep a better hold over the maximalists in the 1940s and 1950s other than "bury the guns, and don't talk about that," then in the post 1956 conditions the PCI would have been able to keep a hold of the political space that was filled historically by the Maoists and the Workerists.



I am suggesting that the slavish tail-ending of the Soviet Union during the 1940s and 1950s lead to the conditions where the PCI was unable to:
a) control its own maximalists politically, leading to:
b) maximalist members leaving the party quietly, and
c) a failure to recruit members who identify in the tradition of Italian maximalism.

Thus that maximalism came to exist outside the PCI.

yours,
Sam R.

Ok, now I got your point.
 
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