Question about Habsburgs and war

[Saturn]

I'm trying to get my TL as true as I can and I would welcome help from the good and knowledgable readers of AH.com
In my TL I have Charles the Bold getting involved in the 'Wars of the Roses' or 'English Civil War' on the Yorkist side and dying on the field of battle in 1464.
I figured this would prompt both France and the Holy Roman Empire to annex Burgundy. And perhaps prompt the Alsace region to join the Swiss confederation as a Canton to prevent themselves from being swallowed up.
In OTL France does grab part of Burgundy and gets away with it without starting any wars. However in my TL Louis XI has more allies so he might feel he can take more land. I was wondering if he grabs what is present day Belgium as well the parts France took in OTL would it lead to war?
If the HRE goes to war I'm sure the Spanish would follow as they are close allies and closely related.

To help in case you haven't read my TL Louis XI has the following allies:
1) He is still married to Margaret Stewart who is Queen of Scotland in this TL
2) His younger son Charles is Duke of Saxony having married the old Duke's daughter and succeeded to his Duchy when the old Duke died.
3) His older daughter is married to Edward of Westminster heir to Henry VI and son to Margaret of Anjou, Queen of England (Who in this TL is beating the yorkist with help from France, Scotland, and Scandinavia.
4) His younger daughter is married to Christian I King of Denmark, Sweden, and Norway

It occurred to me that this might end up in a huge war like the Thirty Years War but much earlier. Then again it might not. What do you think?

 

[Tocomocho]

Hey all. Long time.

If the HRE goes to war I'm sure the Spanish would follow as they are close allies and closely related.

No, they aren't. That's 50 years in the future. At this time Spain isn't unified - Castile is headed by Henry IV, who is sort of an hedonist/"pacifist" king highly apathetic about war and foreign adventures, and Aragon is in the middle of suppressing a revolt in Catalonia. Suppression, BTW, that required buying the help of the king of France in OTL so it might be altered by your POD.

 

[ImperialVienna]

2) His younger son Charles is Duke of Saxony having married the old Duke's daughter and succeeded to his Duchy when the old Duke died.

??? Has Salic Law been somehow mitigated in Germany several centuries early? The French don't let women inherit the throne neither do the Germans, so why would the Emperor and the Electors allow a fairly important territory be inherited by a member of the French Royal Family, when I sure they could find a far more legitimate male heir.

On another note, Mary is still alive and therefore able to inherit the throne. Sure she's only seven, but that means the Nobles get a Regency Council which they would love and I'm sure Friedrich III, HRE or John I of Cleves would become her guardian. If Burgundy is going to be swallowed up their doing to kick the French in the groin the whole way going down. The such an instance, the Nobles are not fighting for their King but literally for their lands and independence and I think you underestimate them in that regard(the bitter fighting against the Spanish comes to mind). They will have the Empire, Aragon and Castile, and Brittany backing them, who do the French have? The Scottish? French dynastic ties (other than to the Scottish) aren't particularly strong historically, I mean hell they went to war with the Habsburgs at every turn yet they were usually married to a few at the same time. So ties to England and Denmark mean nothing especially because the English have so much to gain by opposing them and little to gain as their puppets. Th

 

[mcdnab]

I think you'd need an earlier date than 1464.
Also the War of the Rose is notable in the early phase of not being fought by mercenaries or imported foreign troops. Much of its causes related to the collapse of English hopes in France, the reliance of Margaret of Anjou and her husband on certain favourites, the fact that the crown owed York a fortune for his service in France and Ireland, and very importantly the significant long standing grievances between certain aristocrats such as the rivalry between the Percies and the Nevilles.
France was particularly unwilling to help - a resurgant England under either York or Lancaster was hardly likely to suit them. Margaret of Anjou kinship with the french crown certainly was no great advantage politically for her.
As to Scotland you'll need to make several changes - Margaret Stuart and Louis XI's relationship was dreadful and she never conceived a child. Her brother James II succeeded as a child but given the political state of Scotland assuming James dies along with his twin brother in 1430 then its highly likely she'd struggle to maintain her claim on the Scot's throne even if she lives longer than in otl.
Here's a list of the early battles of the Wars of the Roses (with Towton being the bloodiest of them all).
22 May 1455 Battle of First St. Albans
23 September 1459 Battle of Blore Heath
12 October 1459 Battle of Ludford Bridge
10 July 1460 Battle of Northampton
30 December 1460 Battle of Wakefield (Richard Duke of York killed)
2 February 1461 Battle of Mortimor's Cross
17 February 1461 Battle of Second St. Albans
28 March 1461 Battle of Ferrybridge
29 March 1461 Battle of Towton
Edward of York proclaimed King in June 1461 after the Lancastrian defeat in March.
25 April 1464 Battle of Hedgeley Moor
15 May 1464 Battle of Hexham

 

[Saturn]

Thank you both!
I stand corrected on the Spanish Tocomocho. I don't know why I didn't remember they are still fighting. If the Spanish are out of it that's all to the good for Louis but if the HRE would not have allowed his son to succeed to the Duchy of Saxony then we might get war sooner. Or I'll have to change things so that Charles gets the boot when the old duke dies. I'll also have to see what I can come with as incentives to get the other allies I mentioned in the battle. If he does manage to convince at least Christian I to join in as well as Scotland do you think he has a chance?

Edit: Also thanks to Mcdnab! I did have an earlier POD starting when Margaret and Louis get married. The thread is linked in my sig. I'll post the parts I had changed to make the question clearer.

 

[Saturn]

This is the starting POD. It has Margaret Stewart being a quite different sort of person

1436 Margaret Stewart is given in marriage to the 13 year old Louis, Duc d’Anjou, and 9th Dauphin on 24 June. Instead of casual clothes he wears his finest and takes the time to talk to her making a good impression on the like minded Margaret.

1437 Assassination attempt on James I is unsuccessful unlike in OTL. James takes the hint and stops trying to centralize power. He lives another seventeen years until 1454.

1439 At sixteen Louis is sent by his father to direct the defense of Languedoc against the English, and to put down the brigandage in Poitou, he succeeds with the covert help and advice of his wife who has been creating an intelligence web of her own devising but his full knowledge and endorsement. He learns that the nobles will want him to try to become regent supplanting his father but she shows him that the troops are insufficient for the task. He refuses their offer but doesn’t betray them to the king. He does blackmail them to help fund the intelligence web.

1441 Fighting the English with help of some of his wife’s countrymen.

1443 At twenty aided his father to suppress the revolt of the count of Armagnac. He comes home to find his wife pregnant with his son whom he names Louis after himself.

1444 A.D. Louis led an army of from 20,000 mercenaries and brigands against the Swiss of the canton of Basel. The heroism of some two hundred Swiss, who for a while held thousands of the French army at bay, made a great impression on the young prince. After an ineffective siege of Basel, he made peace with the Swiss confederation, and led his soldiers into Alsace to ravage the country of the Habsburgs, who refused him the promised winter quarters. I’m thinking he takes a fair bit of loot and takes some of the more disciplined and effective mercenaries into his service in his territory. Margaret would be dead this year in OTL of a fever but instead lives on in this TL. Her brother James, who became James II of Scotland in OTL dies instead at fourteen. James I is still king, not having been assassinated.

1444-1453 In these intervening years they retire to the Dauphine, his hereditary territory in the southeast of France, and start running it as if it were an autonomous kingdom. He comes to understanding with the Swiss whom he respects and gets the local nobles firmly on his side by one means or another. During this period he has two more children with Margaret. They are named Charles and Mary.

Dec 1444 Charles is born to Margaret on the Louis’ estate in the Dauphine.
Louis and Margaret set out to govern his principality as though it were an independent state. As in OTL He dismissed the governor; he determined advantageously to himself the boundaries between his state and the territories of the duke of Savoy and of the papacy; the right of private warfare was abolished; the bishops were obliged to give up most of their temporal jurisdiction, the scope of their courts was limited, and appeals to Rome were curtailed. On the other hand, Louis granted privileges to the towns and consistently used their alliance to overthrow the nobility. He watched the roads, built new ones, opened markets, protected the only bankers of the country, the Jews, and reorganized the administration so as to draw the utmost revenue possible from the prosperity thus secured.

1446 Margaret gives birth to her third child whom she names Mary.

1452. He marries his younger son to the eight year old daughter of the Duke of Savoy. He does this to seal a secret treaty with the duke of Savoy which was to give him right of way to Genoa, and make arrangements for a partition of the duchy of Milan.

1453 Charles VII starts worrying that the people like his bright and ambitious son better than he and he starts planning a Royal procession to the city Louis has made his home. It is a thinly disguised attempt to bring a large number of troops with him when he requires Louis come back to court. Charles comes to visit his son sooner than in OTL but Louis has a very similar reaction. It is clear to both Louis and Margaret that he is worried about a coup and even though they do not plan one, they do not want to take chances on Royal Mercy so they flee to her father in Scotland.

They flee to Scotland where shortly after they arrive James I dies and Margaret becomes Queen. Her brother James has already been dead some years of disease. Louis is Prince Consort and now that he is “the power behind the throne” sets his formidable will to expanding his own intelligence apparatus. He squashes all rumors about the coincidental nature of the king’s death the year after they arrive and builds goodwill both in secret and in public as he is also her general and his battle plans in case of English attack are widely considered genius. He would command during whatever small skirmishes or border incidents there were if possible.

Also in this year:
July 17 1st battle at Castillon: French beat English troops
July 23 Battle at Gavere: Philip the Good beats Gentse rebellion
October 19 2nd Battle at Castillon: France beats English, end of hundred year war

Louis does come back and take the throne on schedule as in OTL but has closer ties to Scotland.

 

[Saturn]

1461 He gets word that Charles VII is dying and that his brother will get to Paris first. He arranges for riots and public condemnation to delay the coronation. Meanwhile he gathers an army of Scots and mercenaries and sets sail leaving his son to watch out for his mother’s interests in Scotland. Charles the Bold is one of his allies in the endeavor. He arrives in Paris after his father’s death but his planned diversions have kept Charles, Duc de Berry from assuming the throne. Agents provocateur has spread rumors and suspicions about the king dying so soon after the Duc de Berry’s arrival in Paris. He settles the unrest, crowns himself king, and has his brother imprisoned on suspicion of treason and regicide. After he and his troops have secured Paris he names his eighteen year old son the tenth Dauphin and proclaims he will be king of both Scotland and France.
After a somewhat biased trial he executes his brother in public before the crowd.
Meanwhile in England the year had seen several large battles and a large victory for the new Duke of York who was now calling himself King Edward IV. Queen Margaret, Henry VI, Somerset, and Edward of Westminster fled to Scotland where Margaret, Queen of Scots welcomed Margaret, Queen of England with courtesy if not great warmth since the English Queen, Margaret of Anjou was her husband’s cousin.

1462 Louis XI is considering dynastic Marriages. At eighteen his elder son has been a bachelor much longer than he. He considers possible marriages for his other daughter as well. He communicates with his relative Marie of Anjou and offers her assistance from both France and Scotland but at a price. He wants Calais and for his daughter to wed the Prince of Wales, her son known ITTL as Edward the Hale. She agrees and gets her husband, Henry VI to agree as well and a formal document is drawn up and signed by Louis, Henry, and both Margarets. It states that Calais belongs to France, that the Prince of Wales, Edward the Hale of Westminster would marry Mary, Princess of Scotland and France, and it states that all three countries were bound to each other’s defense in wartime.
Thus a hatchet is buried that would otherwise cause much strife. It wasn’t quite that easy of course and there was much grumbling in all three countries but it wasn’t allowed to progress much beyond grumbling.
The marriage is held in Paris, while war is vigorously pursued on the island.

1463 Isabella of Bourbon dies two years early. Charles the Bold is offered the hand of Anne, sister of Louis XI, in marriage but only if Burgundy stays out of the war of course. He was also offered the hand of Margaret of York if he joined in on the Yorkist side.
Philip the Good refuses for his son and Charles marries Margaret of York. Burgundians forces join in the battles raging through England.

 

[Saturn]

I know in the OTL Burgundian Wars of the 1470's Mary only inherited the Franche Comte and the Burgundian Netherlands. I was just thinking that with a bit more force on his side Louis could get more territory.

From Wikipedia:
"With the death of Charles the Bold, the dynasty of the dukes of Burgundy died out. The Flemish territories of the Dukes of Burgundy subsequently became a possession of the Habsburgs, when Archduke Maximilian of Austria, who would later become Holy Roman Emperor, married Charles' only daughter Mary of Burgundy. The duchy of Burgundy reverted to the crown of France under king Louis XI. The Franche-Comté initially also became French, but was ceded to Maximilian's son Philip in 1493 by the French king Charles VIII in the treaty of Senlis, in an attempt to bribe the Emperor to remain neutral during Charles's planned invasion of Italy."

 

[Susano]

??? Has Salic Law been somehow mitigated in Germany several centuries early? The French don't let women inherit the throne neither do the Germans, so why would the Emperor and the Electors allow a fairly important territory be inherited by a member of the French Royal Family, when I sure they could find a far more legitimate male heir.

The way he worded is is entirely correct. Keep in mind that in Germany salic law in its original form was around, and not the ultra-salic law of France, so land could pass through the female line, to either her sons - or her husband. However, wether that right, or the right of another line comes first, that of course often created problems. Personally, I cannot see the Wettins losing Saxony through marriage. Most likely another line would take over.

 

[Saturn]

So he would have a claim but if he tried to hold Saxony it would start a war?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

The way he worded is is entirely correct. Keep in mind that in Germany salic law in its original form was around, and not the ultra-salic law of France, so land could pass through the female line, to either her sons - or her husband. However, wether that right, or the right of another line comes first, that of course often created problems. Personally, I cannot see the Wettins losing Saxony through marriage. Most likely another line would take over.

inheritance through the female line is allowed only if ALL the senior more direct male lines are extinct at the time of death. Then passage would be through the nearest female relative with an eligible male heir in existence.

The daughter is senior to a sister and thence aunts say..but if she is married but with no children and a sister instead had male heirs then the inheritance passes to the son of the sister..

However in this case...ALL male lines are not extinct so the daughter would not inherit anything but a royal title...and the dowry given at marriage of course

 

[Falastur]

And perhaps prompt the Alsace region to join the Swiss confederation as a Canton to prevent themselves from being swallowed up.

If I can beg of you one thing, it's this: don't bring the Swiss into this. I feel like I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but Alsace would never join the Swiss Confed, largely because the Swiss would never accept. Contrary to what many posters here say, Swiss expansion would be hard to pull off and a Swiss-wank is totally implausible. RL Switzerland is already a Swiss-wank, in the same way that RL USA is an America-wank. They both achieved the vast majority of their potential considering the massive hurdles they had to clear, and expanding much further would push the Swiss close to breaking point.

On top of this, I seriously doubt that the Alsatians would actually want to join the Swiss. I mean, there's no real logic to it - it's too modern an idea, and even then it kind of relies on suppositions which aren't entirely true. For instance, for a start Alsace was a mixture of territories with less in common with each other than to their common monarch/suzerain ruler. There was no Alsatian court, no Alsatian lobby, no Alsatian regionalist or nationalist feeling. If Alsace is going to do anything, it's going to do what the rest of Burgundy does. On top of this, there's the fact that with some isolated exceptions (most notably England and France, who had both been worked up into an early nationalist frenzy by the HYW) while people could point to ethnicities and find kinship or cultural unity with others of their ethnicity, in this era there really was no desire to avoid being annexed by a foreign national power, and similarly when a large and powerful state was threatening to annex your country, the average person would not rise up to resist the invaders - the ones who did were the ones who had a stake in their country's survival. Nationalism or survivalism were not the politics of the day - it was a kind of "every man for his own interests" combined thought. Where there was united resistance to a power, i.e. the leagues against the French in Italy and later against the Spanish, it was because stakeholders (mainly the upper classes) wanted to fight them off to ensure that a strong power did not manage to exert authority because they could thrive on weak governments. Small states were like the mafia - they all could make a killing off running their own territory, but they stood to be curtailed by the presence of a large state controlling what they saw to be their interests, so coalitions formed to fight off invaders not because of the fear of annexation - annexation was an accepted part of life for many people in those days - but because nobles made most money when they had most power. This also explains repeated examples of the middle classes opposing nationalist sentiments in France to favour the English in contested areas, and other such examples of the merchant classes doing the opposite to what the nobles wanted - because they could make the most money from anyone who offered them the best trade routes. As for the working classes, they simply followed their loyalty to their local lords, but as soon as those lords were gone they wouldn't form a guerrilla resistance, they simply switches allegiance to their new rulers. It was all about personal profit for everyone. The upper classes had vested interests. The middle class could wheel and deal but were largely militarily impotent and thus often were ignored. The working class had nothing to win or lose except their church-taught loyalty to their superiors. Hence, Alsace wouldn't be trying to do a runner.

 

[Saturn]

Okay Alsace won't do anything different from Lorraine or the rest of Burgundy.
You've convinced me.
Also thanks to Aurora Borealis for commenting.

 

[Susano]

inheritance through the female line is allowed only if ALL the senior more direct male lines are extinct at the time of death. Then passage would be through the nearest female relative with an eligible male heir in existence.

This is simply not correct. There are several examples among the minor German states where a dynasty loses land because one of its lines go extinct and its land per marriage to another house. Of course it wasnt as in England - a brother, nephew or cousin of course always had precedence before a daughter, but if the other lines are more distant... well, thing is, there was no real rule about how distant the other lines have to be for marriage to take precedence in succession, so that was a cause for succession conflicts. However, as said, Id very much expect the House of Wettin to be able to push its claims through.

The daughter is senior to a sister and thence aunts say..but if she is married but with no children and a sister instead had male heirs then the inheritance passes to the son of the sister..

And btw, this is also not correct. There was no clear succession seniority for females, so that was also often cause for conflicts. Hell, the War of the Austrian Succession for example.

 

[Saturn]

Okay so I'll say he's technically Duke but won't stay Duke with a fight.
I'll also say the law in my TL is as Susano says it is.
This means War.
I'm hoping the British will see fit to help the Queen's brother with his very legitimate claim. His Father, King of France, will also support it. As will his Mother, the Queen of Scotland.

 

[Saturn]

The HRE will be one of those on the other side and quite enough really, but who else if anyone would join in on their side?
We've established that neither Spain nor Switzerland will do so. I doubt the Portuguese will. What about the Italian states?