Question about German entities in the Rhone area

As I'm developing my project on the Teutonic Empire, I have some doubts about how to organize the area of the Rhone in länder (Kreise are easier) and how to name them properly with Germanic toponyms.

I had thought about dividing the west part of the Rhone valley (the left side will be French, including the delta and the Lyon area) in three länder:

- One comprising the coastal area with capital in Marseille (Massilien).
- Another comprising the historical area of the Dauphiné, with capital in Grenoble (Graswalde).
- And the third centered around the Lake Geneva with capital in Geneve (Genf).

I have been thinking about proper Germanic names for these three länder, and my first thought were:

- Burgund (Massilien)
- Rhoneland (Graswalde)
- Obersavoyen (Genf) - It will exist a Niedersavoyen in the Piemont side.

But none of them convince me at this moment, because:

- "Burgund" referred at the beginning to a large area from Marseille to actual Borgogne, but later it was restricted to the north-western area. In my chronology, the area of Provence is incorporated to the Teutonic Empire at the 18th century, so call this "Burgund" at that time might be pretty anachronic. But I don't like to call it "Provence" as this is not a Germanic name. I would want a Germanic alternative to these.

- "Rhoneland" would be a good analogue to "Rheinland", but I think that this name was never used historically. Of course, I don't like "Dauphiné" and I find "Delfinland" pretty ridiculous. I would like to know how the Dauphiné was called in German when it was part of the HRE for a brief period of time, but I haven't found anything.

- "Obersavoyen" fits well for the Annecy area, but I don't know if including here Geneve, Lausanne and the Wallis could be too much. I have also many doubts about dividing Switzerland (in my chronology, the Teutonic Empire takes the area by the 16th century, so then Switzerland was pretty incomplete). I would like to establish a "Schweiz" land in the core area with capital in Zürich, but I'm not sure if I should include Bern also in it. I'm also not sure how to do with the Ticino.

Well, your advices will be very welcome :)
 
As I'm developing my project on the Teutonic Empire, I have some doubts about how to organize the area of the Rhone in länder (Kreise are easier) and how to name them properly with Germanic toponyms.
What exactly are you calling "Teutonic Empire"? The HRE? Something else? A bit of context would be really helpful to fully answer.

I had thought about dividing the west part of the Rhone valley (the left side will be French, including the delta and the Lyon area) in three länder:

Burgund (Massilien)
Keeping Provence makes more sense honestly. It is used in german for naming this region since centuries.

Rhoneland (Graswalde)
Cisjuranien would be probably the best. If you really want to have a Rhineland equivalent, Cisjuranien-Rottenland or simply Rottenland.

Obersavoyen (Genf) - It will exist a Niedersavoyen in the Piemont side.
Transjuranien.

All of these names were historical denomination for the whole early medieval kingdom of Burgundy, and honestly, seems adapted to the situation you depict (borders don't exactly match, but that's a detail)
 
Thanks for the post!

What exactly are you calling "Teutonic Empire"? The HRE? Something else? A bit of context would be really helpful to fully answer.

A little synopsis: Teutonic Empire is a state born upon the (Pod) transformation of the Monastic state of the Teutonic Knights into a Kingdom (by 14th century) that later on will defeat both Austria and the HRE (not at the same time, of course) and expanding from Belarus to the Rhone-Lorraine-Artois line, the Po river and the Balkans (of course, lasting more than 400 years).

Keeping Provence makes more sense honestly. It is used in german for naming this region since centuries.

But was it spelled "Provence"? :confused:

Anyway, calling whatever region simply 'province' is something I never liked.

Cisjuranien would be probably the best. If you really want to have a Rhineland equivalent, Cisjuranien-Rottenland or simply Rottenland.

I love the "Rottenland" proposal. Thanks :D


Transjuranien.

I prefer to not use "cis-" and "trans-" prefixes, as they are Latin, not Germanic (even if they were used in German).

All of these names were historical denomination for the whole early medieval kingdom of Burgundy, and honestly, seems adapted to the situation you depict (borders don't exactly match, but that's a detail)

The problem I have with this, it's that by the time the Teutonic Empire will grab this area, the kingdom of Burgundy no longer existed for centuries, so I'm afraid that they could be quite anachronistic.
 
But was it spelled "Provence"? :confused:
Yep. At bet you could have something like Provenze if really your Teutonic Knights want to pull an Himmler, but that's all (and would look ridiculous).

Anyway, calling whatever region simply 'province' is something I never liked.
Then you would have to invent a name with no historical support, giving that there's no other name that appeared for naming the region between Alps and Rhone.

I love the "Rottenland" proposal. Thanks :D
I think it would be flawed, though. Like naming Rheinland-Pfalz only Rheinland; it would be confusing as litteral Rottenland would extend from at least delta to Lyon, and that pre-alpine lands have a quite distinct feature.

I would stand with Cisjuranien-Rottenland if I were you.

I prefer to not use "cis-" and "trans-" prefixes, as they are Latin, not Germanic (even if they were used in German).
Teutons itself is a latinisation of a celtic name for given germanic tribes. I assume you don't want a lecture about how much german language was influenced by latin and romance features, so...

Yes, Cis and Trans Juranien would work and are historically used by Germans.

The problem I have with this, it's that by the time the Teutonic Empire will grab this area, the kingdom of Burgundy no longer existed for centuries, so I'm afraid that they could be quite anachronistic.

They would have the choice : or they simply invent names that would probably not root in the everyday language (critically if the population remain romance-speaking); or they simply translitterate romance names; or if they search for germanic names use historical ones.
 
I think it would be flawed, though. Like naming Rheinland-Pfalz only Rheinland; it would be confusing as litteral Rottenland would extend from at least delta to Lyon, and that pre-alpine lands have a quite distinct feature.

Maybe I could name the coastal land 'Südrottenland' or 'Niederrottenland' and the northern land around Grenoble 'Nordrottenland' or 'Oberrottenland'.

Teutons itself is a latinisation of a celtic name for given germanic tribes. I assume you don't want a lecture about how much german language was influenced by latin and romance features, so....

I know, Latin was a language that influenced German a lot, as it's logical. However, in my planned chronology, after the schism between Rome and the national teuton church (analogue to Reformation), Teutons will develop an increasing rejection to anyway related to Roman church, including Latin language, so they will try at some point later to 'purify' German language from Latin and Romance influences.

They would have the choice : or they simply invent names that would probably not root in the everyday language (critically if the population remain romance-speaking); or they simply translitterate romance names; or if they search for germanic names use historical ones.

Well, both modern France and Germany have some 'invented' toponyms (all toponyms are invented at some point) but I prefer to use historical names or geographical alternatives (river + land or so).
 
Maybe I could name the coastal land 'Südrottenland' or 'Niederrottenland' and the northern land around Grenoble 'Nordrottenland' or 'Oberrottenland'.
That's sounds depressingly unoriginal, frankly : it sounds like the guy in charge of administrative naming basically said "I don't have the slightest clue on how name this place-land" :)

At least Cis and Transjurane have for them to have some historical pretext to be used, even if they're not a pinnacle of creativity.

so they will try at some point later to 'purify' German language from Latin and Romance influences.
Willing to purify German culture and language is a thing, managing to do so is another.
Even Hitler didn't managed to remove all the Roman and Latin feature during his rule, so I don't really see someone else managing that.

Look what you forced me to do : pulling a Godwin.

Well, both modern France and Germany have some 'invented' toponyms (all toponyms are invented at some point) but I prefer to use historical names or geographical alternatives (river + land or so).
No, there's a difference between inventing from nothing a name (as département for newer political ensembles) and renaming roughly traditional provinces (for instance Provincia>Provence isn't an invented toponym but the natural evolution of a political denomination into a toponym).

Using French exemple a new, while département names took on, the old provincial names are still used. Languedoc for naming both Lower and Upper parts for instance; Touraine; Flandres, etc.

If you want using such alternatives, you should create new political/administrative divisions that shouldn't be that much looking to old ones.
 
That's sounds depressingly unoriginal, frankly : it sounds like the guy in charge of administrative naming basically said "I don't have the slightest clue on how name this place-land" :)

At least Cis and Transjurane have for them to have some historical pretext to be used, even if they're not a pinnacle of creativity.

Yes, I agree. I would only use this kind of divisions in regions were it has been heavily used historically like Niederschlesien / Oberschlesien.

I prefer simple names for regions, without south-, west- etc. and definitely not abortions like Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur.

Willing to purify German culture and language is a thing, managing to do so is another.
Even Hitler didn't managed to remove all the Roman and Latin feature during his rule, so I don't really see someone else managing that.

Well, Nazis tried it too late and they lasted a little period of time. I was referring a gradual 'purification' starting from 16th century until today.

OK, I will rethink about these. Unfortunately, the Rhone area is not the only one where I have these problems. I also have a nightmare with dividing Switzerland and surrounding areas.

Originally, I planned to create a land called 'Schweiz' for the core areas (capital in Zürich) and attach the peripheral ones to neighbouring ones, but:

- I created an abortion land called 'Graubünden' (capital in Chur) that comprised OTL Graubünden plus Liechtenstein and Vorarlberg. However, I realized that this was pretty anti-historical. Later, I decided to detach Bregenz kreis and put it into 'Schwaben' land but I have no clue what to do with the Vaduz kreis.
- I have divided Ticino into Bellinzona (Bellenz) and Lugano (Lauis) kreise, but I'm not sure to which land I should attach them, because they are too little to form its own (I'm forming medium-sized länder with, at least, four kreise). At first, I put them into 'Lombardei' land, but it does not convince me.
- I don't know where to put Basel. I doubt between 'Elsass' land and 'Baden' land, but I don't know if them fits Basel.
- Originally, I also detached Neuchatel (Neuenburg) and added it to 'Freigrafschaft' land, but I guess this is anti-historical and also not geographically sensible.

Some help? :D
 
Yes, I agree. I would only use this kind of divisions in regions were it has been heavily used historically like Niederschlesien / Oberschlesien.
Considering that it was been used between XI and XIV century, I think Cis/Trans Jurane does qualify for historical naming.

I prefer simple names for regions, without south-, west- etc. and definitely not abortions like Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur.
I don't even pretend to understand what you're saying there : abortion would imply the unexistence of a potential entity, and as far as I know, PACA region does exist (but is related to what I said above : invented denomination don't really take on if olders roughly comparable names exists).

- I created an abortion land called 'Graubünden' (capital in Chur)
It could be called Churrätien or Churwalchen. Historical name, if a bit obsolete.

- I have divided Ticino into Bellinzona (Bellenz) and Lugano (Lauis.
Lombardeï make sense, as far I can tell.

- I don't know where to put Basel. I doubt between 'Elsass' land and 'Baden' land, but I don't know if them fits Basel.
Transjuranien makes more sense than these, in my opinion.

- Originally, I also detached Neuchatel (Neuenburg) and added it to 'Freigrafschaft' land, but I guess this is anti-historical and also not geographically sensible.
Freigrafschaft name lasting a PoD needed for a Teutonic-wank seems...well, really unplausible.
As for Basel > Transjuranien.

That said, your landers seems of too various size : Churrätien should be either integrated into a Rethia land (Rätien/Rhätia) or within Swabia (Schwaben)
 
Freigrafschaft name lasting a PoD needed for a Teutonic-wank seems...well, really unplausible.
As for Basel > Transjuranien.

So, why would you name the area of Besançon (Bisanz) known as 'Franche-Comté' (Freigrafschaft) in this case?

That said, your landers seems of too various size : Churrätien should be either integrated into a Rethia land (Rätien/Rhätia) or within Swabia (Schwaben)

I like 'Rätien' for the area of the upper Rhine (from Bregenz to west Graubünden) and it makes also a geographical unit.

Maybe I could build a land called 'Jura' including Basel, CH Jura, French Jura and Neuchatel...but I don't know if Besançon would fit here.
 
So, why would you name the area of Besançon (Bisanz) known as 'Franche-Comté' (Freigrafschaft) in this case?
It depends on how much the Teutons change history.

Bisanzgau is possible, in my opinion.

[QUPTE}Maybe I could build a land called 'Jura' including Basel, CH Jura, French Jura and Neuchatel...but I don't know if Besançon would fit here.[/QUOTE]
OTL, it was part of Cisjuranien.

If you want to prevent the use of Cis/Trans and name otherwise the land between Provence and "Jura" (while I don't see how you could name it, as Rottenland alone doesn't cover it) you could simply call your Jura land as "Juranien".
 
It depends on how much the Teutons change history.

Bisanzgau is possible, in my opinion.

[QUPTE}Maybe I could build a land called 'Jura' including Basel, CH Jura, French Jura and Neuchatel...but I don't know if Besançon would fit here.
OTL, it was part of Cisjuranien.

If you want to prevent the use of Cis/Trans and name otherwise the land between Provence and "Jura" (while I don't see how you could name it, as Rottenland alone doesn't cover it) you could simply call your Jura land as "Juranien".

'Juranien'...I love your proposals :D

I have further doubts, if you bother to give your opinion :D

- Between 'Lothringen' and 'Artesien' I have an area (belonging to OTL Champagne-Ardennes) that I have no clue how to name.

- I'm not sure if I should use the name 'Wallonien' for the land around Liege (Lüttich).

- I'm also not sure what to do with Calais (Kalen).
 
- Between 'Lothringen' and 'Artesien' I have an area (belonging to OTL Champagne-Ardennes) that I have no clue how to name.
Probably Champagne. As Provence, at some point you gonna have trouble finding entierly germanic names.

- I'm not sure if I should use the name 'Wallonien' for the land around Liege (Lüttich).
Yeah, I think it appeared only in the late XIX or early XX. Maasland could be better if you search to base a name on river, or simply Niederlothringen if you don't want to work too much on it.

- I'm also not sure what to do with Calais (Kalen).
It really depends on your borders. If Artois is a german lander, probably best to include it. If not, into Flanders.
 
Probably Champagne. As Provence, at some point you gonna have trouble finding entierly germanic names.

Yeah, I think it appeared only in the late XIX or early XX. Maasland could be better if you search to base a name on river, or simply Niederlothringen if you don't want to work too much on it.

Maybe a good idea could be to merge part of Wallonia into this area of Champagne and call it 'Maasland'. I like this name.

It really depends on your borders. If Artois is a german lander, probably best to include it. If not, into Flanders.

Yes, there is an Artois ('Artesien') land. But maybe it will be too large.

I would like to know if merging Alsace with Baden would makes sense. Nazis did it, but I don't know if it had any historical background.
 
Maybe a good idea could be to merge part of Wallonia into this area of Champagne and call it 'Maasland'. I like this name.
Meh, other way around would make more sense. Ardennes provides an important buffer region between both after all.

Yes, there is an Artois ('Artesien') land. But maybe it will be too large.
I don't think so, but if it's really bugging you, try merging with Boulogne ( Bonen ) region. Bonengau isn't a pretty name, but could do it.

I would like to know if merging Alsace with Baden would makes sense. Nazis did it, but I don't know if it had any historical background.
IIRC, they were both united within the duchies of Alemania and Swabia.
 
Meh, other way around would make more sense. Ardennes provides an important buffer region between both after all.

So, maybe the southern part (France) could be 'Maasland' and I can rename part of Wallonia as 'Ardennen'. The western part would lie into the 'Brabant' land though.

I don't think so, but if it's really bugging you, try merging with Boulogne ( Bonen ) region. Bonengau isn't a pretty name, but could do it.

You're right, that 'Artesien' is not that big.

IIRC, they were both united within the duchies of Alemania and Swabia.

I didn't know it. And how it should be named? Elsass or Baden?
 
For Switzerland, if the area's progressing roughly as OTL then you're looking at essentially the modern borders by 1536. There's some pretty logical breaks to make though:

-Waadtland: Modern Canton of Vaud, Prior to 1536 this also included about half of Freiburg and part of Bern. Could be combined with the rest of Freiburg and the old County of Gruyere/Greyerz as well as Geneva.

-Jura or possibly Birstal/Birsgal: Basically the entirety of the old Prince-Bishopric of Basel, including the modern Bernese Jura (around Biel), and potentially the city of Basel itself. This could also include both Neuchatel and Solothurn if you wanted it to (it's not the most historic of divisions but both were associates rather than cantons so make a logical split off).

-Churrätien, as stated above this would cover most of the modern Canton of Graubünden along with a large part of modern St. Gallen, Liechtenstein and most of the Vorarlberg . I would, however, create a large division (possibly called Rheingal/Rheintal) covering this, the Thurgau, the rest of St. Gallen, Konstanz and potentially the area around Montfort on the northern side of Lake Constance. The eastern part of Graubünden could be annexed to the Tyrol (it was historically part of it after all). Schaffhausen should be part of Swabia

-Lugano/Bellinzona: Add this to the Valletina and Ossola and you've got a decent area to play around with.

Depending on what you want, the rest of Switzerland could be left as a single unit, or split between Bern and Zurich.
 
So, maybe the southern part (France) could be 'Maasland' and I can rename part of Wallonia as 'Ardennen'. The western part would lie into the 'Brabant' land though.
Again, more likely the reverse. North as Maasland, and south as Champagne.

I didn't know it. And how it should be named? Elsass or Baden?
Neither. Unite them under Swabia. Too small lander won't make much sense unless it's precisely the goal planned.
 
Thanks to LSCatilina and Alex for your ideas :)

Last night I redrew some borders in my test map and now the southwestern part of the Empire looks better. Basically, I did this:

- A new land called 'Jura' comprising OTL Franche-Comté plus the areas of Basel and Neuchatel.
- A new land called 'Waadt' comprising the Vaud, Geneve, the French area south of Geneva lake, Freiburg and the Valais.
- I merged all the area from Bourg-en-Bresse (Bressenburg) to Avignon into the new 'Rottenland' land. I thought it could be too large, but it's not bigger than 'Lombardei'.
- I created a new land only for the coastal area from Marseille to Nice. By the moment, remains unnamed.
- I created a 'Schweiz' land with the German cantons, excepting Freiburg and Valais (Waadt), Basel (Jura) and Schaffhausen (Schwaben).
- I created a 'Rätien' land including Graubünden, Liechtenstein and Vorarlberg.
- I have attached the Ticino to 'Lombardei' land.

So, in the southwestern area, the only remaining open point is the name for the Marseille-to-Nice land. I don't want to use 'Provence' or similar :D
 
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