Question about Christianity and the year 800 AD

aspie3000

Banned
This is kind of a weird question but its for an idea regarding a story. In a world where Christianity never happens and nothing replaces it and Europe stays pagan would the borders of Europe arrive at something resembling the borders of 800 AD in the same year? What would be the effect of no Christianity on the rise of the Franks and the later Frankish empire? Without Islam existing and no heroic legacy of Charles the Hammer Martel I assume that the Merovingians would retain power so would they continue to conquer west or would the Carolingian borders not happen? What about feudalism? Would feudalism develop as it did in a pagan Europe or no? What about the heptarchy in England? Would the seven kingdoms still be a thing without Christianity or no? Would Visigothic Spain survive as well or be conquered into another empire? Or is a world where paganism still survives so alien that we couldn't predict the results?
 
This is kind of a weird question but its for an idea regarding a story. In a world where Christianity never happens and nothing replaces it and Europe stays pagan would the borders of Europe arrive at something resembling the borders of 800 AD in the same year? What would be the effect of no Christianity on the rise of the Franks and the later Frankish empire? Without Islam existing and no heroic legacy of Charles the Hammer Martel I assume that the Merovingians would retain power so would they continue to conquer west or would the Carolingian borders not happen? What about feudalism? Would feudalism develop as it did in a pagan Europe or no? What about the heptarchy in England? Would the seven kingdoms still be a thing without Christianity or no? Would Visigothic Spain survive as well or be conquered into another empire? Or is a world where paganism still survives so alien that we couldn't predict the results?
Without the rise of Christianity,whether the Roman Empire in the west collapses or not is in doubt,nevertheless whether or not the Franks,the Visigoths and the Anglo-Saxons can conquer Gaul,Hispanic and Britannia respectively.
 
Feudalisation grew from a collapse of Central control and long-distance trade already in the 3rd c. So it might still happen. But after centuries of butterflies, i would most certainly expect borders in 800 to look different.
 
With such a PoD, you could have anything from the Roman empire rebounding from the Great Migration with only the loss of a few outlying territories to having it collapse thoroughly and completely in the east as well.
 
Without the rise of Christianity,whether the Roman Empire in the west collapses or not is in doubt,nevertheless whether or not the Franks,the Visigoths and the Anglo-Saxons can conquer Gaul,Hispanic and Britannia respectively.
Not really in doubt, to be honest - the rot in the Roman Empire was very deep and went back a lot, having very little to do with Christianity. Unless you can prevent serfdom from appearing, Rome will keep getting weaker that its size suggests.
 
Not really in doubt, to be honest - the rot in the Roman Empire was very deep and went back a lot, having very little to do with Christianity. Unless you can prevent serfdom from appearing, Rome will keep getting weaker that its size suggests.
At the very least,the ability of the Romans to coopt the barbarians would be stronger.To my knowledge,the Arian-Chalcedonian divisions impaired Roman relations with potential barbarian allies/subjects.The Eastern Empire in particular was heavily damaged by sectarian violence due to different schisms.
 
No way would they be anywhere near similar. Christianity was important by 400, so there are 4 centuries of huge butterflies, as a bare minimum, that would need to be considered.

- BNC
 
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