Question about Brazilian nobility

Krall

Banned
I've been investigating the Empire of Brazil as research for a certain monarchical America timeline I might be doing at some point, but there's something I'm not too sure about.

I was just wondering whether anyone knew what privileges were given to the Brazilian nobility, if any? I understand the structure of the nobility, but I can't find anything that says for sure whether the titles were empty, or whether nobles recieved some form of privileges or payment from the state for their noble titles. Does anyone here know?

Thanks in advance!
 
I've been investigating the Empire of Brazil as research for a certain monarchical America timeline I might be doing at some point, but there's something I'm not too sure about.

I was just wondering whether anyone knew what privileges were given to the Brazilian nobility, if any? I understand the structure of the nobility, but I can't find anything that says for sure whether the titles were empty, or whether nobles recieved some form of privileges or payment from the state for their noble titles. Does anyone here know?

Thanks in advance!

They were just fancy titles, that generally were bought from the Emperor, and in some cases granted. They had no privilege at all.
 

Krall

Banned
They were just fancy titles, that generally were bought from the Emperor, and in some cases granted. They had no privilege at all.

Ah, thank you!

Can I just ask whether you're taking this from your own knowledge or from a specific source? I mean no offence but I'd like something more concrete, just to be sure.
 
During earlier periods, it was mostly bought from the emperor and during later periods(Pedro II) it was usually granted to those who served the empire most faithfully. But during most periods it was but a mere null and void title that was given quite often.
I got this from Wikipedia, BTW.
 
Ah, thank you!

Can I just ask whether you're taking this from your own knowledge or from a specific source? I mean no offence but I'd like something more concrete, just to be sure.

The Constitution of 1824. It has no reference to privileges, only to titles and honours. Nobles couldn't claim any privilege since they weren't nobles in the European sense (old families that have power due to tradition). The Brazilian nobles were only rich people who generally bought their titles as it would give them prestige or received it from the Emperor when he wanted to appease or honour them. But the noble title didn't give them power. By the contrary, they received it (or bought it) because they were powerful.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
The Constitution of 1824. It has no reference to privileges, only to titles and honours. Nobles couldn't claim any privilege since they weren't nobles in the European sense (old families that have power due to tradition). The Brazilian nobles were only rich people who generally bought their titles as it would give them prestige or received it from the Emperor when he wanted to appease or honour them. But the noble title didn't give them power. By the contrary, they received it (or bought it) because they were powerful.

That's different from european nobility how? ;)
(seriously, at this point easily a third of the peerage of Great Britain were people who had "bought their way into" the baronetage and were later upgraded to baron, as were many of the oldest families (most of whom were simply summoned to the house of lords because they were feudal lords who held lands per baroniam to begin with), while in Spain and Portugal you could, indeed, buy a title of nobility (the crown of Spain had a position where you had to first buy a title of baron or viscount, then a title of count or marquis, then you could be made grandee). France had a limited form of it in its robe nobility as the positions that granted this nobility were quite often traded.), and you could buy in by way of land tenure, too, since to be "reputed noble" you simply had to live nobly for three generations while owning an estate.
 

Thande

Donor
That's different from european nobility how? ;)
(seriously, at this point easily a third of the peerage of Great Britain were people who had "bought their way into" the baronetage and were later upgraded to baron, as were many of the oldest families (most of whom were simply summoned to the house of lords because they were feudal lords who held lands per baroniam), while in Spain and Portugal you could, indeed, buy a title of nobility (the crown of Spain had a position where you had to first buy a title of baron or viscount, then a title of count or marquis, then you could be made grandee). France had a limited form of it in its robe nobility as the positions that granted this nobility were quite often traded.)

Aye, but the difference is that in those countries it was a case of the new nobles being a separate group from the established nobles, who looked down on them as nouveau riche. Whereas in Brazil there were no established nobles to start with for the new ones to define themselves against. At least I would guess that's how it was.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
Aye, but the difference is that in those countries it was a case of the new nobles being a separate group from the established nobles, who looked down on them as nouveau riche. Whereas in Brazil there were no established nobles to start with for the new ones to define themselves against. At least I would guess that's how it was.

Makes sense; every house in the peerage has a 1st baron somewhere ;)
 

Thande

Donor
Makes sense; every house in the peerage has a 1st baron somewhere ;)

But in the case of the old British or European nobility, not a few of those peerages would have a founder who got his title from cutting people's heads off with a bloody big sword.
 
Aye, but the difference is that in those countries it was a case of the new nobles being a separate group from the established nobles, who looked down on them as nouveau riche. Whereas in Brazil there were no established nobles to start with for the new ones to define themselves against. At least I would guess that's how it was.

Yes, that's one of the differences. Other is the fact no Brazilian noble title could be inherited. If your father was the Marquis of Alegrete, when he dies you would only become Marquis of Alegrete if you could buy the title again.
 

Thande

Donor
Yes, that's one of the differences. Other is the fact no Brazilian noble title could be inherited. If your father was the Marquis of Alegrete, when he dies you would only become Marquis of Alegrete if you could buy the title again.

Life peerages? That is different.
 
Life peerages? That is different.

It was one of the "crazynesses" of our Independence. Pedro I and his supporters wanted a strong monarchy, but no one wanted to create a nobility. And making peerages valid only per life would satisfy both the "ego" of those wanted a fancy title as the pockets of the Emperor.
 
Would the sons of the nobles have a first chance at buying their fathers' titles? Or was it more of an open market, first come, first served?
 

archaeogeek

Banned
It was one of the "crazynesses" of our Independence. Pedro I and his supporters wanted a strong monarchy, but no one wanted to create a nobility. And making peerages valid only per life would satisfy both the "ego" of those wanted a fancy title as the pockets of the Emperor.

So a lot like papal peerages then.
 
Would the sons of the nobles have a first chance at buying their fathers' titles? Or was it more of an open market, first come, first served?

I'm not sure, I can't remember any case of the same peerage going to people from different families, but it was possible. Maybe it wasn't more common because the monarchy didn't last much time after all (only 67 years).

So a lot like papal peerages then.

Pretty much.
 
This one is better(from Wiki):
" The nobility of Brazil differed markedly from counterparts in Europe. Noble titles were not hereditary with sole exception of members of the Imperial Family.[111] Persons who had received a noble title were not considered as belonging to a separate social class and received no appanages, stipends or emoluments.[ "
 
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