Query Could Turkey have been a dangerous Nazi ally

Turkey's army is probably not going to affect the war but would its strategic position? If Turkey joins at the right time it has the ability to drastically affect the middle east. For example an Axis Turkey opens another front with Egypt and perhaps they could link up with the rebellious Iraqis. Also to be considered is the fact that Baku is within striking distance of east Turkey.

Admittedly I'm not an expert on the logistical situation here so I'm not sure if it's plausible.

Probably the best POD is to have an alternate leader in power then Ataturk. I understand that on his death bed he predicted a 2nd world war and asked his colleagues to promise they would not join the war.

Bonus points if someone can make Hitler serve in the Ottoman Empire during WWI as a liaison officer under General Colmar von der Goltz (whom he greatly admired) and he is able to forge personal links with future leader.
 

GTAmario

Banned
Turkey needs to stay neutral. Have you guys ever played as them in the civ II WWII scenario? You get crushed as soon as you make a move by someone.

Nice, because playing a massively outdated game makes you an expert on geopolitical realities.
 

Philip

Donor
Assuming Turkey joins the Axis, but it does not affect the final outcome of the war: the Allies still win.

What are the effects on Soviet strategy and the post-war situation? Do they divert troops from the drive into Germany for a chance at ensuring post-war Turkey ends up as a Soviet satellite? Do the Western Allies take Berlin instead?
 

Markus

Banned
As others said OTL Turkey wasn´t powerful and had no reason to get involved in the war but the OP thinks of an ATL-Turkey with a 1900 POD.

How about Turkey does not get involved in WW1 and manages to retain control of northern Iraq? That would strenghten her economically. Politically ultra-nationalists benefit from the Ottoman Empire´s demise after WW1. They are successfully peddling all sorts of conspiracy theories that have "The West" mastermind the various post-war uprisings leading to the Empire´s breakup. In 1940 France falls and Turkey -like Italy- thinks they have an opportunity to regain some of the lost lands.

Given Turkey´s proximity to the oil fields in Iraq, Iran and the USSR, a hostile Turkey would have been really dangerous.
 

Bearcat

Banned
Germany would have loved to get Turkey in the war on their side. German forces striking from northern Turkey could quickly imperil the oil fields in the USSR's Caucasus region.

But whats in it for Turkey? I cannot see anything they want that is really worth the risk. Turkey is not run by stupid people; they could see the industrial correlation of power. Why run a high risk of Allied curbstomping for little reward?
 
I agree with the many people here that with a PoD in the 1930s or later there's pretty much no way for Turkey to join the Axis that doesn't involve ASBs.

However, we have 30 more years than that to work with based on the OP.

However, there's another problem: with a 1900 PoD, does WWII even happen? We need to not just change Turkey, but change it in a way that DOESN'T dramatically change Germany until 1940 or so at the earliest.

Keeping the Ottomans out of WWI seems doable and looks like the best bet, but I'm weak on that era in that part of the world - the butterflies might flap away the Axis entirely.
 

Markus

Banned
Keeping the Ottomans out of WWI seems doable and looks like the best bet, but I'm weak on that era in that part of the world - the butterflies might flap away the Axis entirely.

How so?

Turkey neutral/part of the Entente = Bosporus open = Russian exports get out/Entente supplies get in = probably no Russian revolution/earlier defeat of Germany

So Germany get´s the ToV anyway, Italy does not get the short war they expected ... Ohh wait, a Russia that is not communist does have far reaching consequences, like Russia still being allied to France and the UK in 1939, which butterfly the German attack on Poland away. Unless Russia also breaks up post-WW1 regardless if it´s still a monarchy or becomes a republic.
 
If the POD means the OE stays out of WWI then the Turks have no reason to join in a war.

If the Turks were on the Entente winning side London and Ankara(Istanbul) are friends and allies and if on the CP winning side then there isn't a Nazi Germany in the first place.
 
I'm strangely taken by the idea of the Ottoman Empire joining the Axis in WWII, having stayed out of WWI and retained its 1914 borders.

Can anyone recommend some good books that might help?

How's this for an idea (criticism welcome, constructive suggestions doubly so):

1. The RN sinks the Goeben before she reaches the Aegean. Certainly possible - she was badly outnumbered and could easily have been caught.
2. Absent Goeben receiving shelter from the Ottomans, the Empire remains neutral - the Bosporus remains open to Russian trade, and Lawrence of Arabia is never more than an unremarkable junior army officer. This is unlikely, but seems possible.
3. At the end of the war, the Ottomans demand the British pay up on their offer of 1,000 pounds per day for the 'loan' of HMS Agincourt and HMS Erin. Presented with a bill for some one and a half million pounds and two dreadnoughts after a very costly war, the British provide only partial payment. Relations with the Ottomans are permanently damaged.
4. Russia still falls and becomes the USSR, although this happens a little later. The USSR emerges slightly weaker by 1939 than OTL, having fallen further under the Czars and having had less time to industrialize.
5. The Ottomans, controlling more territory and having taken no losses in WWI, remain a notable second-tier power in Europe. As war looms in Europe they re-arm to some extent, but plan to remain neutral in Germany's favor.
6. Germany annexes and conquers pretty much along OTL lines through the fall of France. The Ottomans see the British as being on the ropes, and decide to seize the Suez Canal, long a point of tension between the two nations. The British declare war, and having nothing to lose the Ottomans join the Axis.

Comments encouraged!
 
Turkeys are dangerous!

Regarding the opening post - yes, if Roosevelt's Thanksgiving Turkeys had been infected with salmonella...
 

Spengler

Banned
Yes if France and Britain decide to enforce the ridiculous treaty of Sevres I could definitely see the Turks going fascist and gladly allying with Germany.
 

Markus

Banned
I'm strangely taken by the idea of the Ottoman Empire joining the Axis in WWII, having stayed out of WWI and retained its 1914 borders.

The former does not result in the latter. The OE had been falling apart for decades, their Balkan and north African posessions were gone already. That trend is to likely to stop.
 
The former does not result in the latter. The OE had been falling apart for decades, their Balkan and north African posessions were gone already. That trend is to likely to stop.

Of course the former does not automatically result in the latter. I wouldn't even say it probably results in the latter. I don't (yet, anyway) see it as implausible, however. BTW, Egypt may or may not have been gone in practice, but in theory it was (edit to add) still included.

The Ottomans weren't doing well, true, but many nations have survived worse.

If you have more than vague assertions I would be most happy to hear them.
 
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