Queen Elizabeth I is twin girls

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by The Professor, May 7, 2018.

  1. The Professor Pontifex Collegii Vexillographiariorum

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    As it says, what if Elizabeth I of England was born as twin girls, whether identical or not, otl Bess being firstborn.

    What political consequences could there be assuming Henry remarries and sires Edward as OTL?
     
  2. BlueFlowwer Well-Known Member

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    Well, if Elizabeth does not wed as otl, then her sister, let's call her Anne, is most likely to marry and her potential heirs will perhaps suceed her sister if she does not.
     
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  3. The Professor Pontifex Collegii Vexillographiariorum

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    Who could she (why not Margaret?) marry?
     
  4. Derek Jackson Member

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    An a nephew or even niec for good queen bess at least or a while butterflies Stuarts and union of English and Scottish crowns
     
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  5. Corjomc Well-Known Member

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    Identical could lead to shenanigans. At the very least Elizabeth could have Anne pretend to be her while she did other things.
     
  6. The Professor Pontifex Collegii Vexillographiariorum

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    I think the younger daughter is more likely to be Margaret than Anne based on previous - Mary for his favourite sister and Jesus's mother, Elizabeth for his mother and sister (and probably Anne Boleyn's mother too).
     
  7. BlueFlowwer Well-Known Member

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    I can't have a princess Anne? Bummer. What bridegroom is avaliable to Anne/Margaret?
     
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  8. Polish Eagle AntiFa Supersoldier

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    Philip of Spain was interested in marrying Elizabeth to renew the Hapsburg-Tudor alliance. Maybe he’d settle for the sister if the queen wants to keep her options open.

    If Anne/Margaret must marry a Protestant, it’ll be either one of Elizabeth’s court favorites or some German prince.

    All this assumes Elizabeth is born a few minutes ahead and so becomes queen on Mary’s death same as OTL. That said, Anne/Margaret would throw a wrench into the family of Henry VIII. Her interaction with Mary, Catherine, Anne Boleyn, and Henry could alter the line of succession later on—maybe she’d embrace Catholicism to spite her sister or something. And didn’t twin births lead to greater rates of complications in the past? Might not Anne die in childbirth?
     
  9. colleoni Well-Known Member

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    Ooh, at the time Anne was still his great love - if she dies giving birth to healthy girlS will Henry revere her memory ("look, she gave me two healthy daughters AT ONCE! If only we had married before she would surely have given me sonS! Oh my dear Anne!") or despise her for failing to deliver a son?
     
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  10. Polish Eagle AntiFa Supersoldier

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    Well, at least Catherine will be pleased.

    Best for her not to dance too openly at the funeral.
     
  11. The Professor Pontifex Collegii Vexillographiariorum

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    Margaranne? :p
    It's possible for her daughter2 to be named Anne but I think Big Henry's Ego will enforce a name relevant to him first.

    Could a French match be viable?
     
  12. TheHispan Well-Known Member

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    is there a "real" case of twins who had or had not had near kings or queens?
     
  13. BlueFlowwer Well-Known Member

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    Is there a danish prince for Anne/Margaret to wed? Or why not John III of Sweden?
     
  14. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    She's almost 50 with heart cancer, I DON'T see her dancing. But I do see her shouting "God be praised" at the top of her lungs and seeing it as vindication. She'd probably start packing up her stuff waiting for the letter to come from Henry to tell her to move back into her old rooms.
     
  15. BlueFlowwer Well-Known Member

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    I can't for my life see Catherine being welcome back by her husband even with Anne's death. If she dies in childbirth then Henry can still wed a foreign princess, his reputation is not as damaged as it would became with Anne's beheading OTL.
     
  16. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say Kate WOULD be welcomed back, just that she'd EXPECT it. "Any day now Henry will send for me, just you wait, you'll see"
     
  17. Kynan Well-Known Member

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    So with the death of Anne Boleyn in 1533, just a few months after her coronation, Henry VIII has a few pathways to consider:

    1. Return to Catherine, reinstate Mary as his heir and discard his newborn infant daughters as bastards, probably giving them either to their grandfather or their uncle to be raised.
    2. Wait until Catherine dies, marry some willing woman, and then pretend the Anne thing never happened, either by instating his younger daughters as Princesses under Mary, or simply discarding them as bastards. See option 1 for where they end up.
    3. Stick to his guns, declare Elizabeth, the elder twin by those few minutes as his heir until further notice, and remarry as soon as he finds the right woman and is up to it. Catherine is shocked that he doesn't take her back, Mary has no one to blame but her father, and everyone is forced to conclude it's the King's fault, because the woman they blame OTL is dead and thus a non-influence at this point. Alternatively, these people claim the King is still under her spell even after death, and thus continue to blame a woman for the problems caused by a man.
    4. Remain unmarried and potentially celibate in his dead love's honour, raise Elizabeth and her sister as heirs, and maybe that'll convince everyone he really loved Anne Boleyn.

    Now, option 1 and 4 isn't likely to happen, so it's between 2 and 3, and I could actually see 2 happening if just because Henry will struggle to find a foreign bride willing to take him while Catherine is still alive, but Anne had no rivals in England at the time and every domestic match will have her memory looming over it, particularly if the young lady in question served Catherine of Aragon, which, if they're of the right age and breeding, they probably did. So let's say he undergoes a year of mourning, begins looking for a new wife mid to late 1534, aims too high, maybe even going for the Emperor's widowed sister while still, to the Catholics, being married to his aunt, and eventually settles either for some fiery young English Rose who reminds him of Anne (maybe Mary Howard, who here is probably not marry to Henry Fitzroy) or some German Princess, maybe even Anne of Cleves. However, I've got a slightly different direction for him to consider than the traditional Cleves match.

    In 1535, with his issues with the Emperor making it difficult to find a bride, Henry VIII is drawn into the arms of the Landgrave of Hesse and the Elector of Saxony, who are very uncomfortable bringing a man who less than a decade ago was calling them heretics into their ranks. However, he promises support, particularly for John of Saxony, who fears the repercussions if he speaks out against the Emperor. Thus, with that treaty drawn up, Henry VIII marries Maria of Saxony, sister of the Elector of Saxony. He offers his support to the Schmalkaldic League (although is not made a member, due to his difference of religion), and by early 1536, Maria of Saxony is in London, and shortly after her arrival, Catherine of Aragon is dead. Suddenly, a whole host of options Henry might have had are before him, he's stuck with a young, if quietly dutiful Saxon bride, and life is annoying like that. However, the new Queen of England is quick enough to adapt, he's still young and virile enough to be interested, and early 1537, a son is born. Maria easily survives the birth of little Henry, Prince of Wales and Henry is pleased that, finally, he has a son, and two daughters he considers legitimate to boot.

    Henry remains a somewhat negligible presence for the Schmalkaldic League, sending small measures of support, but actively attempting to pull himself back into the Hapsburg v. France clash he's used to. His marriage to Maria of Saxony, although technically made in a bigamous way, is recognised by the Emperor quickly enough, and by 1538 he's trying to play the Hapsburgs and the French for the hand of his daughters, suggesting little Elizabeth for France, and maybe little Margaret for Austria or Spain. AT this point, Isabella of Portugal is pregnant again, but lets keep that OTL and have her die in childbirth.

    Now the real problem for Henry is Mary, because she refuses to recognise ANY of Henry's other children as legitimate. Henry Fitzroy is fine to her, because he was never considered the heir to the throne and dies around the same time as OTL because I don't think sex was the thing that killed him, and even if Henry keeps him unmarried, he isn't going to escape the Tudor curse when it comes to adolescent boys dying. Thus, Mary represents a problem for Henry, and will not reconcile with her father or her new, only a year her elder stepmother. She declares young Henry Tudor a bastard and thus, Henry isolates her, refuses to speak to her and, when his second and third children to Maria of Saxony are born, in 1538 and 1540 respectively, she only hears about it through hearsay. In 1540, after almost dying in a jousting accident (again) and hurting his leg, Henry has her sent to the Tower, where she is threatened that she shall be executed for treason, for failing to recognise the heir to the throne. Eventually she cracks, and in 1542, partially at his wife's suggestion, pregnant with their 4th child, Mary is marries off to Ernest of Brunswick-Grubenhagen, son and heir to the Duke of of Brunswick-Grubenhagen and a member of the Schmalkaldic League, who collectively chose to recognise Henry's annullment and Mary's bastard status because, despite his distance and lack of commitment, he is allying with France over the Hapsburgs solely because he is trying, somewhat, to be a faithful ally, and he brings further legitimacy to the whole ordeal.

    In 1546, Henry actually participates with the Schmalkaldic League when he is part of the Schmalkaldic War against the Emperor, helping to end the conflict quickly, although he has to be convinced not to further attack and take ALL THE EMPIRE, because that isn't possible and not the point of the war. He becomes close to the Elector of Brandenburg, and even gets to visit Mary, who is withdrawn and depressed in her new home, but pregnant for the first and only time, with what will be a stillborn daughter. She tries to convince her father to allow her to return to England, but he refuses to remove her from her situation, particularly because he believes she'd be happier if she'd just accept where she was.

    Henry dies in 1551, but overall was healthier than OTL, the break from jousting prevented certain injuries from OTL, and while he did manage to break his leg and hurt himself a few times, he's generally able to be more active in this version of history, and also has a consistent calming influence in Mary of Saxony, who ultimately provided him with 5 children, 4 of while survived infancy. His daughters by Anne are thriving and, to him, the sweetest girls in the world, and close to their cousins, the children of George Boleyn and Jane Parker (they don't talk about Mary Boleyn and her remarriage to the Stafford man, but they remained around court OTL and the children were, before their death, in the custody of their uncle George). His wife, comfortable in England and with a certain authority, plays an integral part in the regency of her eldest son, Henry IX, and sees all her children (step and otherwise) married to good Protestant matches, or matches her husband suggested before his death.

    Family Tree

    Henry VIII, King of England (b.1491: d.1551) m. Catherine, Infanta of Aragon (b.1485: d.1536) (a) -annulled 1532-, Anne Boleyn (c.1501/1507: d.1533) (b), Maria, Princess of Saxony (b.1515: d.1583) (c)

    1a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1510)

    2a) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1511: d.1511)

    3a) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1513: d.1513)

    4a) Henry Tudor, Prince of Wales (b.1515: d.1515)

    5a) Mary Tudor (b.1516: d.1559) m. Ernest III, Duke of Brunswick-Grubenhagen (b.1518: d.1567) (a)

    1a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1547)​

    6a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1518)

    7b) Elizabeth Tudor, Princess of England (b.1533: d.1565) m. William IV, Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel (b.1532: d.1592) (a)

    1a) Anne, Princess of Hesse-Kassel (b.1554)

    2a) Sabine, Princess of Hesse-Kassel (b.1555)

    3a) Stillborn Son (c.1556)

    4a) Stillborn Son (c.1558)

    5a) Henry I, Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel (b.1561)

    6a) Stillborn Son (c.1562)

    7a) Maurice, Prince of Hesse-Kassel (b.1563: d.1566)

    8a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1565)​

    8b) Margaret Tudor, Princess of England (b.1533: d.1608) m. Frederick II, King of Denmark (b.1534: d.1588) (a)

    1a) Elizabeth, Princess of Denmark (b.1556)

    2a) Christian, Prince of Denmark (b.1558: d.1575)

    3a) Frederick III, King of Denmark (b.1561)

    4a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1562)

    5a) Anne, Princess of Denmark (b.1565)

    6a) John, Prince-Bishop of Schwerin (b.1566)​

    9c) Henry IX, King of England (b.1537: d.1599) m. Mary I, Queen of Scotland (b.1542: d.1594) (a)

    1a) Edward VI, King of England and Scotland (b.1564)

    2a) Mary, Princess of England (b.1567)

    3a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1568)

    4a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1568)

    5a) James, Duke of Gloucester and Albany (b.1570)

    6a) Stillborn Son (c.1572)

    7a) Margaret, Princess of England (b.1575: d.1575)

    8a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1577)​

    10c) Edward, Duke of York (b.1538: d.1540)

    11c) Anne Tudor, Princess of England (b.1540: d.1566) m. William I, Prince of Orange (b. 1533: d.1584) (a)

    12c) Jasper Tudor, Duke of York (b.1542: d.1574) m. Hedwig, Princess of Württemberg (b.1547: d.1590) (a)

    1a) Henry, Duke of York (b.1564: d.1580)

    2a) Elizabeth, Princess of York (b.1570)

    3a) George, Duke of York (b.1573)​

    13c) Bridget Tudor, Princess of England (b.1543: d.1620) m. John Sigismund Zápolya (b.1540: d.1571) (a)

    1a) John II, Prince of Transylvania (b.1569)​
     
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  18. The Professor Pontifex Collegii Vexillographiariorum

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    Any more ideas?
     
  19. isabella Well-Known Member

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    If If Anne die in childbirth the second daughter will be likely named after her mother not her aunt