Qin Does Not Annex Shu

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Strijdende_Staten_1.gif
Strijdende_Staten_1.gif
Conquering Shu and Ba was a major step for Qin toward battling the Chu State and eventually annexing all of China. What if though the Qin do not succeed in annexing Shu? For one they would not be able to bring in the resources that The Sichuan as an abundant region provided. It's possible given geography they could grow distinct from eastern China.
 
The Sichuan region indeed can for a time grow separate given its geography, but demographically speaking, the Yellow River is more populous then Sichuan by a tremendous margin. Provided an end to the Warring States period occurs through some means (perhaps it will be through a different state that undertook more Mohist philosophic tenets [now that is possibly one of the biggest butterflies to the development of China that you can possibly imagine]), it will eventually be eventually conquered and integrated by a "Chinese" dynasty or state.

Now, the characteristics of that state will be what defines just how much cultural "distinctiveness" will be left to the region.
 
If Shu and Ba escape conquest by Qin, I guess that leaves open the possibility for their conquest by Chu, which would create the exact opposite of what happened historically. In this situation, Chu would conquer Shu, and then move on to Qin and unite the Warring States. Of course, Chu was never one of the strongest of the Warring States, but then again, for much of its history, Qin wasn't either.
 

Thande

Donor
If Shu and Ba escape conquest by Qin, I guess that leaves open the possibility for their conquest by Chu, which would create the exact opposite of what happened historically. In this situation, Chu would conquer Shu, and then move on to Qin and unite the Warring States. Of course, Chu was never one of the strongest of the Warring States, but then again, for much of its history, Qin wasn't either.

So in this world, China becomes known to the West as "Chuna" or something?
 

Thande

Donor
Thats a common enough Mis conception. China in China translates as 'Middle Country' literally. So probably would still be China

That's wrong. "Zhongguo", the most common Chinese name for China, means "Middle Kingdom" (or "Central State" or however you want to translate it). The word "China", however, is an anglicisation via Portuguese and various other languages of the name "Qin", hence what I was talking about.
 
That's wrong. "Zhongguo", the most common Chinese name for China, means "Middle Kingdom" (or "Central State" or however you want to translate it). The word "China", however, is an anglicisation via Portuguese and various other languages of the name "Qin", hence what I was talking about.

You miss understand me. I lived in China. I and well aware of Zhongguo. There is no real connection between the words. I'm saying the debate over the origin of 'China' is debatable as there were different Qin and further the name went westward by way of Persians.
 
So in this world, China becomes known to the West as "Chuna" or something?

That's wrong. "Zhongguo", the most common Chinese name for China, means "Middle Kingdom" (or "Central State" or however you want to translate it). The word "China", however, is an anglicisation via Portuguese and various other languages of the name "Qin", hence what I was talking about.

Well, I don't know if China in English came from Portuguese, but I know there are references to Cina (which thanks to the soft C in Sanskrit is pronounced . . . China) in Sanskrit and I think Persian, and I'm pretty sure that the term originated with Sanskrit and then went to Persia. Most people think that it refers to Qin, but that depends on how you date references to Cina in the Ramayana, Mahabharata, and other Indian classics. If you go for the earliest dates thought for the first two, then it's unlikely that Cina refers to Qin, which had not come into prominence yet. If you use later dates thought for the texts, then it becomes much more workable. In addition, other scholars think Cina refers to Jing, the state as, wait for it . . . Chu. If that is the case, then China might remain around in everyday use as well! That last idea that I've heard that seems possible is that Cina comes from the state of Yelang, formerly of Guizhou. The name Yelang comes from an ancient pronunciation of something that might have "Zina" in the original indigenous language.

The last idea is that Cina comes from Sanskrit meaning "country of thought" or something like that, but nobody believes this anymore. I don't think that there were different Qins: there was always only one state of Qin in ancient times. I'll direct you guys to http://sino-platonic.org/ and to issue #188 where Geoff Wade discusses the topic, so you can come to your own conclusions about whether he's right or not.
 

scholar

Banned
If Shu and Ba escape conquest by Qin, I guess that leaves open the possibility for their conquest by Chu, which would create the exact opposite of what happened historically. In this situation, Chu would conquer Shu, and then move on to Qin and unite the Warring States. Of course, Chu was never one of the strongest of the Warring States, but then again, for much of its history, Qin wasn't either.
"Chu was never one of the strongest of the Warring States"? Chu was, for a time, the most strongest of the warring states and was for most of its existence on of the premier Chinese states.
 
"Chu was never one of the strongest of the Warring States"? Chu was, for a time, the most strongest of the warring states and was for most of its existence on of the premier Chinese states.

Okay, okay, you got me on the last part. Chu was absolutely one of the premier Chinese states. Though, I'm pretty sure that even at its strongest, Chu was never stronger than Jin (晉) when it was Hegemon (霸), and after that was the period when Wu and Yue defeated Chu several times. After Jin (晉) collapsed, I would say that Zhao and later Qin would be stronger. What I was thinking was, Chu was never the strongest of the Chinese states, mainly because its huge territory also encompassed a low population density and ineffective leadership.
 

scholar

Banned
Okay, okay, you got me on the last part. Chu was absolutely one of the premier Chinese states. Though, I'm pretty sure that even at its strongest, Chu was never stronger than Jin (晉) when it was Hegemon (霸), and after that was the period when Wu and Yue defeated Chu several times. After Jin (晉) collapsed, I would say that Zhao and later Qin would be stronger. What I was thinking was, Chu was never the strongest of the Chinese states, mainly because its huge territory also encompassed a low population density and ineffective leadership.
The three Jins were at their most powerful when teaming up with one another, even though they were incredibly wealthy and powerful on their own. I'm not sure you can call the Zhao stronger than the Chu for its entire existence, however. If I'm correct then the Zhao would only later become stronger or about as strong as the Qin, which is when Chu was in third or fourth place. I would say for a time that Chu was the strongest state in China. However, strongest state does not imply unbeatable or winning more than losing. A strong state can lose against a weaker one with alarming regularity based on the skills of the generals involved. This does not mean that the Chu was not the strongest or near the strongest state, merely that it was defeated by smaller ones. While it would be nice and simple to think that way, we know better by now. There are too many modern instances of such things happening. :)
 

scholar

Banned
Okay, alright, I don't dispute the possibility, but when was it the strongest state?
Around Wu Qi's time as a minister there would be a good point to say that. At the time Qin and Zhao were rising, but hadn't made it to the top. Chu could reasonably be said to have been the strongest from the fall of the Jin to a decade or so after Wu Qi's assassination.
 
Around Wu Qi's time as a minister there would be a good point to say that. At the time Qin and Zhao were rising, but hadn't made it to the top. Chu could reasonably be said to have been the strongest from the fall of the Jin to a decade or so after Wu Qi's assassination.

Okay, I guess I was wrong then.
 
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