Q: Would an eventual UK of the Netherlands including the Rhineland be included in the German Confederation?

[Mario]

When alt-results for the Congress of Vienna have been discussed here, it has often popped up the idea that part of or most of the Rhineland could have been granted to the United Netherlands in case that Prussia would have kept their 1795 borders including most of Poland.

But if most or a significant part of the Rhineland would have granted to the United Netherlands...would the UKN been included in the German Confederation? Or just the Rhenish part, like IOTL was included Luxembourg? However the Rhineland would be way way more relevant in all aspects (demographic, economical, political...) than Luxembourg, and even in the case that only the Rhineland would be included in the GC would mean a major impact to the United Netherlands as a whole.

In the other hand, the United Netherlands would not be happy to be dragged into GC, as this would mean no possible neutral policy for them, even if an inclusion of a large UKN including the Rhineland in the GC would be a good counterpart to the Austrian-Prussian axis.

 

[pompejus]

I would say no. The Netherlands was not a German nation and was considered to be outside of Germany. The only reason Luxemburg became part of the confederation was because both the Netherlands and Prussia wanted it and this was a compromise and Dutch Limburg was only added as a compensation for when Belgian Luxemburg left the German confederation. If the Netherlands would gain all of the rhineland, it is obvious Prussia does not want it, or else prussia would have gotten all of the Rhineland. That said, it depends on how big a part of the Rhineland would become Dutch. If it was just Cleves and German Gueldres (or something like that, no it would certainly not become part of the German confederation. But if William I got his wish and all the territory between the Moselle and the Rhine would become Dutch, especialy if we include Nassau, which was also part of the plan (the entire idea was to connect the Nassau areas of which Willem I was count with the Netherlands), it would be so big part of Germany, I could easily see the Rhineland becoming part of the German Confederation, in actual personal union with the Netherlands. Luxemburg (and later Limburg) were in reality simply part of the kingdom of the Netherlands and treated as such.

The Netherlands itself and that includes Belgium would never become part of the German confederation. The Dutch didn't want it, king William I didn;t want it, the Germans didn't realy want it and most importantly the British, the French and the Russians wouldn't want it. That said, I think all of the Rhineland up to the Moselle ending up Dutch, I find rather unlikely. More of the Rhineland ending up Dutch, that is possible (especialy if Prussia doesn't gain the Rhineland, but for example Saxony). But I think it would be limited to the region around Cleves and Limburg.

 

[Mario]

The Netherlands itself and that includes Belgium would never become part of the German confederation. The Dutch didn't want it, king William I didn;t want it, the Germans didn't realy want it and most importantly the British, the French and the Russians wouldn't want it. That said, I think all of the Rhineland up to the Moselle ending up Dutch, I find rather unlikely. More of the Rhineland ending up Dutch, that is possible (especialy if Prussia doesn't gain the Rhineland, but for example Saxony). But I think it would be limited to the region around Cleves and Limburg.

Obviously the Dutch did not want it and Prussia found it unnecessary as things were settled IOTL.

But in the scenario where the Netherlands could get a significant part of the Rhineland (instead of Prussia) things would be quite different: the Dutch would not want it anyway, but at some point they might face the dilemma that maybe seizing control over Rhineland might require GC membership, as probably both Prussia and Austria will push for the inclusion of the Rhineland in the GC, so it could come as a condition to William I: you can control (part of/the) Rhineland ONLY IF you accept GC membership.

Rejecting the control over such a rich, populated, strategic area is something that could not be rushed at the first thought. In this case, many pros and cons should be evaluated. The UK of Netherlands would benefit a lot of such annexation in many ways and the only pay might be to admit GC membership (which at first was just a loose confederation, there were no visions of Zollverein or anything similar). Basically, the main objection to GC membership, nationalistic issues apart, was the compromise of the country neutrality. This is not a minor issue, but I don't think that completely blocking considering this alt-scenario, where the Dutch would have such a good compensation for that.

 

[pompejus]

Obviously the Dutch did not want it and Prussia found it unnecessary as things were settled IOTL.

But in the scenario where the Netherlands could get a significant part of the Rhineland (instead of Prussia) things would be quite different: the Dutch would not want it anyway, but at some point they might face the dilemma that maybe seizing control over Rhineland might require GC membership, as probably both Prussia and Austria will push for the inclusion of the Rhineland in the GC, so it could come as a condition to William I: you can control (part of/the) Rhineland ONLY IF you accept GC membership.

Rejecting the control over such a rich, populated, strategic area is something that could not be rushed at the first thought. In this case, many pros and cons should be evaluated. The UK of Netherlands would benefit a lot of such annexation in many ways and the only pay might be to admit GC membership (which at first was just a loose confederation, there were no visions of Zollverein or anything similar). Basically, the main objection to GC membership, nationalistic issues apart, was the compromise of the country neutrality. This is not a minor issue, but I don't think that completely blocking considering this alt-scenario, where the Dutch would have such a good compensation for that.

As I said, I can see the Rhineland to become part of the German confederation, just like Luxemburg was, but certainly not all of the Netherlands. Both Prussia dn Austria themselves had territories that weren't part of the German Confederacy. Something similar could happen with the Netherlands. All of the Netherlands though. No that will simply not happen. The Netherlands was not considered German, so it would not become part of the German Confederation.

 

[Mario]

As I said, I can see the Rhineland to become part of the German confederation, just like Luxemburg was, but certainly not all of the Netherlands. Both Prussia dn Austria themselves had territories that weren't part of the German Confederacy. Something similar could happen with the Netherlands. All of the Netherlands though. No that will simply not happen. The Netherlands was not considered German, so it would not become part of the German Confederation.

The problem here is that the Rhineland was far more populated and had a lot stronger economy than Luxembourg, so even if only this part was member of GC it would impact the Netherlands a lot more than Luxembourg did it IOTL, especially if the Zollverein becomes a thing ITTL. In my opinion this formula would have been hard to implement with a territory which could become potentially half of the whole united Dutch economy.

 

[stevej713]

The Netherlands certainly wouldn't annex the Rhineland. To give equal representation to millions of Germans would be a great way of infuriating the Dutch, as well as inflaming German nationalism. Better for the king to be in personal union with a separate Rhenish state, like the British monarchy with Hanover.

 

[HJ Tulp]

The Netherlands certainly wouldn't annex the Rhineland. To give equal representation to millions of Germans would be a great way of infuriating the Dutch, as well as inflaming German nationalism. Better for the king to be in personal union with a separate Rhenish state, like the British monarchy with Hanover.

The UK of the Netherlands was practically a absolute monarchy.

 

[pompejus]

The problem here is that the Rhineland was far more populated and had a lot stronger economy than Luxembourg, so even if only this part was member of GC it would impact the Netherlands a lot more than Luxembourg did it IOTL, especially if the Zollverein becomes a thing ITTL. In my opinion this formula would have been hard to implement with a territory which could become potentially half of the whole united Dutch economy.

The thing is the Netherlands (and I am including belgium in this for ease sake) was not a German country and was not seen as a German country in the 19th century. That alone would be a reason for it to remain outside the German confederation. Besides that, the Netherlands and the Dutch would not want to become part of the German confederation. Another reason for the Netherlands to remain outside it. Also the United Kingdom (the British one), Russia and France would not want the Netherlands inside the German confederation out of fear that it might become to strong. Ad lastly, I don't think Austria or Prussia would want the Netherlands to join, simply because it would mean a reduced influence of them within the German confederation.

You mention that the Rhineland would be far more important than Luxemburg. You are right about that, of course. But Austria had all of Hungary and basicly everything that wasn't Austran or Czech outside of the German Confederation, while Prussia had all its Polish areas (including Prussia) outside of the German confederation. They managed. Why would it be so strange for the Netherlands to not have a similar arrangement. The Rhineland is part of the German confederation, while the Netherlands (including Belgium and Luxemburg and probably some areas of Gueldres and Limburg that ended up Prussian OTL) are outside of the German confederation.

 

[Mario]

You mention that the Rhineland would be far more important than Luxemburg. You are right about that, of course. But Austria had all of Hungary and basicly everything that wasn't Austran or Czech outside of the German Confederation, while Prussia had all its Polish areas (including Prussia) outside of the German confederation. They managed. Why would it be so strange for the Netherlands to not have a similar arrangement. The Rhineland is part of the German confederation, while the Netherlands (including Belgium and Luxemburg and probably some areas of Gueldres and Limburg that ended up Prussian OTL) are outside of the German confederation.

Because you are giving a reverse example here: both Prussia and Austria had their political and economical cores inside GC, while excluded some peripheral territories. In the case of UK Netherlands-Rhineland you propose to exclude the core while keeping an important part of the realm inside GC. It would be like modern Germany leaving EU, but allowing Bavaria to remain inside the EU...this would not work at all; in the other hand, there are countries inside the EU with territories outside of it (i.e. Denmark - Greenland) which would be an analogue example of Prussia and Austria regarding GC.

Another comment by the way: the GC was called in both French and Spanish 'Germanic Confederation', implying that was not strictly 'German', but 'Germanic'.

 

[Nivek]

Jared Used that POD SO YES

 

[pompejus]

Because you are giving a reverse example here: both Prussia and Austria had their political and economical cores inside GC, while excluded some peripheral territories. In the case of UK Netherlands-Rhineland you propose to exclude the core while keeping an important part of the realm inside GC. It would be like modern Germany leaving EU, but allowing Bavaria to remain inside the EU...this would not work at all; in the other hand, there are countries inside the EU with territories outside of it (i.e. Denmark - Greenland) which would be an analogue example of Prussia and Austria regarding GC.

I realy don't think it matters. For example Holstein was Danish, but Kopenhagen was outside the German Confederation. Same thing.

Another comment by the way: the GC was called in both French and Spanish 'Germanic Confederation', implying that was not strictly 'German', but 'Germanic'.

And in Dutch it is called de Duitse Bond, excluding the Netherlands. What does it matter what non German people called it. It only matters what the Germans themselves called it. And they called it 'Deutch", which did not include Dutch (even though the NEglish language makes it confusing)

 

[Mario]

I realy don't think it matters. For example Holstein was Danish, but Kopenhagen was outside the German Confederation. Same thing.

And in Dutch it is called de Duitse Bond, excluding the Netherlands. What does it matter what non German people called it. It only matters what the Germans themselves called it. And they called it 'Deutch", which did not include Dutch (even though the NEglish language makes it confusing)

Holstein is an example similar to Luxembourg, so it's not a good example. IOTL Denmark (Holstein), the United Netherlands (Luxembourg) and even the UK (Hanover) were in personal union with a territory inside the GC, but either these territories had no significant weight in the whole nation (first two cases) or were de facto detached with the Crown as a symbolical union (case of Hanover). These cases are not the case we are discussing here, unless the Rhineland would form a completely separate state with the Dutch King as the only vincle with the Netherlands, but even this is complicated due to the given circumstances (as others said, the Dutch King was quite absolutist and ambitious).

And regarding the name of the GC...by 1815 the terms German/Germanic and their equivalents in German were still not well defined as 'Germany' had not existed as such for centuries. These terms were more precisely defined after the mid-19th century revolutions, and that is why the confusion in French or Spanish denominations.