Q: Were the Levant Crusades colonial?

A few months ago, I was chatting about history with a taxi driver when he asked me a question that hasn't left me since.
Were the Crusades colonisation?

Let's start by trying to define colonisation before rushing off to an answer.
I believe we can define colonisation as the conquest and domination of an ethnically and geographically different area with the goal of extracting resources for the benefit of a distant metropolis.

Let's take a few examples and see if that fits.

The Spanish Conquest of the Americas: the Spanish were a foreign people trying to extract gold and other resources to fund their European wars after violently conquering the locals and establishing themselves as a ruling class.
The Portuguese colonisation in the Indian Ocean: Same here, they come, take over and rule, redirecting benefits toward Lisbon.

Now, settler colonisation is a bit different in the sense it's not just extraction of resource but we do see a pattern of legal subservience of the colony toward the metropolis with the foreign class supplanting the indigenous elite.
For example, French Algeria or Russia in Inner Asia. In the first case, the resource is various metals, wheat and wine as well as military bases while in the second case, the fur trade was a major driver.
Roman colonisation might be a bit more of the first but I'd be interested to hear in how it fits in that framework.

This definition also fits other examples like the Generalplan Ost or, to an extent, the Manifest Destiny expansion toward the Pacific, with an extraction of the profits toward a center, to the disagreement of the former occupants of the land.

Do note that in that definition, the extraction part is really important. For example, we couldn't say the mandchous colonised China as they didn't extract profits for another center. Instead, they installed themselves in the existing center, in place of the former elite. We see similar examples in India with the Mughals.


Now the Crusades. As far as I can tell, this is not colonisation. While it is a foreign people conquering land and supplanting the elite, I would compare it more to the Manchus than to a colonial state. Beyond some vague familial ties, there was no relation of subservience of the Latin Kingdom toward Western Europe. Jerusalem didn't pay taxes to Paris nor did it have to send men that way or any kind of resources.
If the Latin Kingdoms had been conquered in the name of the King of France, now it would be colonisation. We see for example pseudo-crusades in the Maghreb in the XVth century, where the land was held in the name of the Iberian Kings. This would be classic colonisation as there's a subservient link to the metropolis.

Curious to know what y'all think!
 
I don't think this is conolosiation because as you say there is no direct link between the "metropolis" and the interstate. Moreover, even if nobles had fun carving out states in the region, many of them returned to Europe because the Crusade was aimed at the liberation of Jerusalem. Once that was done, they returned on Europe.
 
This is an interesting question; but to be brief, yes at least if the question is subservience to head regions.

The Crusaders in the Levant were a joint Papal-Byzantine venture in theory and in practice, a Papal series of invasion and systems in place at conquering or in their opinion, re-acquiring areas prior lost to what was the considered Papal dominion over the former Roman Empire. This included, population exchanges, adventurism and firm placement of Papal temporal and spiritual authorities to the furthest corners of the world. It is akin to the situation of the Norman conquest of Sicily and the states south of Abruzzi.

Norman adventures were essentially, Papal agents and mercenary distributed across the region so as to better settle, battle and contest anti-Papal foes such as the Islamo-Arab states and the Byzantine empire, with whom after the 1020s, had breached the prior century long Papal-Imperial detente. It too, is mirrored in the way in which Papal policy revolved around the Crusades in Iberia, decades prior to 1090, namely the inspiration of cross-European migration and settlement of Iberia as armed crusades and vectors of battle and opposition to the Islamic Taifa and later Almoravid realms of Iberia and the Maghreb.

What we see here thus at play, is what the Islamic historical scholars of the time spoke of; a wider Papal controlled Europe (a loose control as a hegemony, similar to the later Abbasid state) instructing, ordering and planning vast campaigns and expansion routes across the west. So, yes, it is colonization by way of the Papacy, but a sort of colonization that was quite haphazard and tenuous.

A side note: during this period, a Papal legate referred to, someone who was invested as the Pope in light of circumstance. Hence, at the time of the First Crusade, Legate Adhemar was in effect a second Pope, permitting him to have all the authority and power of the Papacy in the east until the completion of the Papal operation. Hence, why when he entered Constantinople, he was treated as the leader of the entire operation by Emperor Alexios I and treated as the equal in terms of titles, whilst Raymond IV was clearly a simple accessory to the Papacy.
 
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I don't think this is conolosiation because as you say there is no direct link between the "metropolis" and the interstate. Moreover, even if nobles had fun carving out states in the region, many of them returned to Europe because the Crusade was aimed at the liberation of Jerusalem. Once that was done, they returned on Europe.

The Crusader states were technically not permitted to make peace treaties though, except by Papal permission and all crusades were in theory commanded principally by Papal legates and Papal appointed mouthpieces. Generally, in the Levantine Crusade, the strategy of Urban II and subsequent Pontiffs, was that the Crusader States were to be dual vassals of the Papacy and the Eastern Empire; similar to the theoretic position that the Papacy held over the Norman adventurer realms in Sicily and Naples and with much of the Dalmatian coastline.

The question is, liberation from what? This is an important point, the Papacy was not simply seeking to liberate lands for them to be free zones for the transit of pilgrims. No, it was implicitly attempts to assert Papal military authority through its vassals in Europe across the West and to expand the borders of Papal temporal power. This too, would permit a closer and more friendly relation with the Eastern Empire, hence Adhemar's insistence upon the necessity for the Crusader lords to pledge vassalage to the Eastern Empire, aside from the returning Crusader Raymond IV of Toulouse (which Urban II labelled as the primary Papal army, whilst the other Crusader detachments were seen as minor wings and accessories). Raymond IV did not pledge vassalage due to the understanding that he would not be staying in Eastern realms and that his only duty was to fulfill Papal orders, commands and dictates.
 
@John7755 يوحنا , I was looking forward to your answer!
I see your point but I'd think you vastly overstate papal authority, particularly in regard to the Norman Kingdoms. I just finished (yesterday!) a book on the subject by Pierre Aubé and the impression I got is that while the Norman kings of Sicily were technically vassals to the Pope, it was a vague legal arrangement, more of an alliance treaty than anything else.
You can certainly see that it wasn't a coercive arrangement with the number of clashes that happened and the wars that were fought.

Otherwise, since the Pope also gave rights of conquest of America, you'd say the Pope conquered the Aztecs. While from a legal standpoint, you might make some finaggling, there's no real basis.
The kings of Sicily didn't get their power from the Pope, as exemplified by the number of times the king of Sicily wasn't accepted by the Pope until the latter was forced to do so at knife point. It went as far as the Norman taking the right to name their own bishop pretty much until the Hauteville were taken off the map and replaced by the Stauffen.
For authority and subservience, I'd ask if the Pope had a real coercive power on the Levant States or on Normandy. I would say he hadn't and could only impose his authority on a reluctant ruler with the military power of a bigger state behind him.
 
@John7755 يوحنا , I was looking forward to your answer!
I see your point but I'd think you vastly overstate papal authority, particularly in regard to the Norman Kingdoms. I just finished (yesterday!) a book on the subject by Pierre Aubé and the impression I got is that while the Norman kings of Sicily were technically vassals to the Pope, it was a vague legal arrangement, more of an alliance treaty than anything else.
You can certainly see that it wasn't a coercive arrangement with the number of clashes that happened and the wars that were fought.

Otherwise, since the Pope also gave rights of conquest of America, you'd say the Pope conquered the Aztecs. While from a legal standpoint, you might make some finaggling, there's no real basis.
The kings of Sicily didn't get their power from the Pope, as exemplified by the number of times the king of Sicily wasn't accepted by the Pope until the latter was forced to do so at knife point. It went as far as the Norman taking the right to name their own bishop pretty much until the Hauteville were taken off the map and replaced by the Stauffen.
For authority and subservience, I'd ask if the Pope had a real coercive power on the Levant States or on Normandy. I would say he hadn't and could only impose his authority on a reluctant ruler with the military power of a bigger state behind him.

1. The military power behind him though, was always a more loyal vassal state. Consider the relation between the Zhou dynasty and its vassals, ordering different hegemons to battle others. This is the situation at play, in my sincere opinion. This too is the limit of my argument, not the Normans and so forth were some sort of servile bureaucrats to Papal power, but that the Papacy was at the top and commanding an overall confederacy over Europe; one that was perhaps the hottest chair in the world at the time, in terms of recalcitrant vassals.

2. No, the Papacy did not conquer the Aztecs. It was firstly not an ordered action by the Papacy. According to the bull rendered by Alexander VI, Spain did not need to conquer anyone, these lands were all in terms of Papal legal opinion, theirs by right regardless of enforcement. In a sense, the Papacy was just defining legal borders. It was not intentional orderings.

Secondly, the Papal hegemony over Europe in my opinion, ended around 1414 in almost all senses. Some authorities remained however, such as the conception that the Pope was the king of England (ended with the reign of Henry VIII) and interdiction remained useful within Italy, but otherwise, the Papacy was moving evermore towards spiritual insular relations to Europe and giving up its universal temporal authority over Europe. In 1420, the Papacy attempted to regain some of its prestige by denying or abrogating Constance, but this went upon deaf ears.

3. The Papacy had no reason to coerce the Normans, the Papacy permitted their arrival and settlement and gave them the legality to use all means to conquer and loot. It was not as if the Papacy simply legitimized an occurrence that was inevitable, nay, they gave legal privilege and power to the Normans to do so and this heightened the Norman conquests and adventurism. It too was the Papacy that funneled information most likely to Normandy of the situation, via its extensive contacts in Europe.

4. If it was a vague legal concept only, then we would not expect Innocent III to do what he did, namely outright elect and appoint kings of Sicily and deny others. If the Papacy so chose to, they would have had the power to bring anyone in Sicily to heel. Papal military power however and its enforcement, required legal precaution, for attacks upon vassals is tyranny, certainly.

5. Naming your own bishop was a right conferred upon them by the Papacy, if I am not mistaken. Gregory VII ruled that the Pope could confer to a monarch the authority of investiture. However, the monarch could not claim itself as the sole investor. This is a huge misunderstanding unfortunately, that the Papacy was fighting wars just so as to have the rights to appoint bishops. No, the Papacy had simply given or conferred investiture to too many lords and this had the effect of certain monarchs claiming to have always primordially had the right or that they could do so based upon varied philosophies. The Papacy simply sought to restore to balance that rupture in relation and affirm that it is the Pope who invests investor rights upon a monarch.

6 What do you mean by assert his authority upon Normandy? Describe a threshold and I will attempt to vault this bar.
 
Only a short answer as I'm in bed and on my phone
these lands were all in terms of Papal legal opinion
So here we see that the Papal rights were a complete fiction. While the pope might grant titles, they were not his to begin with
The military power behind him though, was always a more loyal vassal state
It was more a balance of power thing. The Pope had a big status, kinda like controlling Mecca I'd say. Having him agree with you is a big boost but not really the only thing that matters. When it didn't suit them, the Roman Emperors had no qualm electing their own pope.
The Normans also didn't need papal approval. Guillaume Ier was king long before the Pope could be cowed into accepting him at the 1156 Treaty of Benevento.
Authority means coercion, not just lip service. One could be king without papal approval, but it was a nice thing to have. Not having it just gave a handy excuse to all your enemies. If the Pope really was the boss of the Norman King, the king would have had to obey.
the Papacy permitted their arrival and settlement
Not really though. Their settlement began before papal approval and Papal approval was more of a post facto rationalisation, or at least a form of alliance treaty to avoid being invaded from the South.
 
Only a short answer as I'm in bed and on my phone

So here we see that the Papal rights were a complete fiction. While the pope might grant titles, they were not his to begin with

It was more a balance of power thing. The Pope had a big status, kinda like controlling Mecca I'd say. Having him agree with you is a big boost but not really the only thing that matters. When it didn't suit them, the Roman Emperors had no qualm electing their own pope.
The Normans also didn't need papal approval. Guillaume Ier was king long before the Pope could be cowed into accepting him at the 1156 Treaty of Benevento.
Authority means coercion, not just lip service. One could be king without papal approval, but it was a nice thing to have. Not having it just gave a handy excuse to all your enemies. If the Pope really was the boss of the Norman King, the king would have had to obey.

Not really though. Their settlement began before papal approval and Papal approval was more of a post facto rationalisation, or at least a form of alliance treaty to avoid being invaded from the South.

Well, all I can say is, I disagree. I interpret the matters at hand in the opposite direction and see a more expansive Papal empire than is typically awarded by the common folk.
 
Basically, no, in the sense that they were not "about" foreign loot / exploitation/resource extraction or colonial settlement, etc (accepting the frame that colonialism was).

For a longer take, read this 2015 blogpost by Tim O'Neill, which is a review of generally critical review of Rodney Stark's history of the Crusades, but really touches on what the Crusades were about as well, when talking about the small number of things O'Neill views that Stark gets right:

Stark also manages to debunk another common myth about the Crusades - that they were actually carried out to win copious loot from the rich Levant and that they were undertaken by landless second, third and fourth sons in a massive colonial land snatch. As meticulous recent research by Christopher Tyerman and Jonathan Riley-Smith has shown in great detail, going on Crusade was far more likely to bankrupt the Crusader and his family than win them riches. Despite this, as Tyerman has shown, the same families continued to send Crusaders east for several generations and to wear the ruinous cost of doing so. Clearly something other than riches was motivating these people. The idea of landless second sons heading east to carve out territories to settle may also fit with modern ideas of likely motivations, but it also does not fit the evidence. Apart from some notable exceptions - Bohemond and Tancred and their Normans spring to mind - most of the Crusaders did not go east to settle on new land at all. In fact, the ultimate failure of the Crusader States of Outremer was precisely due to this not happening. Instead of settling in the east, the overwhelming majority of Crusaders served their time in Outremer and then went home. The Crusader States were, from their beginning to their end, desperately short of military manpower for exactly this reason and ultimately collapsed as a result. This is partly because the "landless second, third and fourth sons" idea is also a myth. The men that the Crusades attracted were far from "landless" and the history of the Crusades is riddled with accounts of men who did their "pilgrimage in arms", killed their quota of infidel "paynims" and then had to head home because of the pressing need to get back to their European estates.

As odd and unpalatable as it may be to modern people, the primary motivation of Crusaders seems to have been religious piety. It was usually a form of piety that modern observers find bizarre and was often one informed by myth and a weird idealism that we find hard to reconcile with modern Christianity or with any modern ideas at all, but the evidence is overwhelming that it was genuine and highly motivating.
 
Authority means coercion, not just lip service. One could be king without papal approval, but it was a nice thing to have. Not having it just gave a handy excuse to all your enemies. If the Pope really was the boss of the Norman King, the king would have had to obey.
Then in that case most medieval monarchs didn't actually rule, because it seems like in your opinion authority only counts if no one opposes/rebels, which happened regularly and often in every Christian country from England to Poland, and you can see the same things happening in medieval japan. Dealing with recalcitrant magnates in your realm is just the nature of feudal power
 
Then in that case most medieval monarchs didn't actually rule, because it seems like in your opinion authority only counts if no one opposes/rebels,
I wouldn't go as far, but the question would be, do you have the resources to put down the rebels yourself and does the military power come from you? Before I continue, I'm no medievist, so I sincerely invite discussion and to be corrected!
Now early kings of France didn't really have that kind of power, and indeed we see the power is really fluid, with France being kind of a loose confederation.
However, we do see the king of France being able to grant the whole of Normandie to Rollon, by his own authority, without this being an empty promise to be made de facto by force, like the Americas.
But after Philippe Auguste, the king has power in his name and rules. As in, he can knock heads without begging other rulers for help. The Pope couldn't do that, all he could do was ask others to intervene on his behalf. It's a bit similar to being part of NATO I'd say. You can ask but it's not guaranteed, and just because you're the head of NATO doesn't mean you control your members military
 
Only a short answer as I'm in bed and on my phone

So here we see that the Papal rights were a complete fiction. While the pope might grant titles, they were not his to begin with

It was more a balance of power thing. The Pope had a big status, kinda like controlling Mecca I'd say. Having him agree with you is a big boost but not really the only thing that matters. When it didn't suit them, the Roman Emperors had no qualm electing their own pope.
The Normans also didn't need papal approval. Guillaume Ier was king long before the Pope could be cowed into accepting him at the 1156 Treaty of Benevento.
Authority means coercion, not just lip service. One could be king without papal approval, but it was a nice thing to have. Not having it just gave a handy excuse to all your enemies. If the Pope really was the boss of the Norman King, the king would have had to obey.

Not really though. Their settlement began before papal approval and Papal approval was more of a post facto rationalisation, or at least a form of alliance treaty to avoid being invaded from the South.
I had this debate in another thread - I made the point that the Pope did not set a nations laws, did not appoint local rulers, could not remove local rulers without others helping him, and had very limited rights to meddle in internal politics, but was shouted down! In the end I just left the thread rather than be attacked for saying the Pope was not an emperor. I think the thing is that some people then and now actually believe the Pope's own propaganda, when the reality is they were a figurehead with spiritual authority who sometimes played the game well enough to get their ends but often ended up being forced to do what the local kings wanted or compromise; they were at best first among equals, but not even really that most of the time. As you say, an authority figure who cannot force you to do anything ISNT an authority figure! Glad to see I'm not alone on this.
 

Derek Pullem

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I can't say I'm a fan of the idea that the Pope actually controlled a state (outside of the direct temporal Papal possessions). The Papacy may have wanted to establish the idea that states were subservient to God and hence to his representative of Earth but that had never achieved any significant traction from Charlemagne onwards. the Papacy had great moral authority but moral authority doesn't get you temporal authority over the conquered lands.

As for the original question, were the crusades colonisation - my opinion is not so much in the Levant. There was never a practical attempt to make them dependent on a metropole which was the crusader states great weakness. There is more of a case for the Iberian and Prussian crusades to be considered colonisation as the states evolving from these crusades did establish a power base which they extended through conquest and settlers. The Levantine crusades never really moved beyond an extended raid.
 
Colonization happened during the Crusades to a certain extent, just as colonization inevitably happens every time a piece of land is taken away from one country and given to another. However, the Crusades were not intended as a colonial venture, for this primary reason - most knights and kings that went on Crusade were doing so not to make money (indeed, many went bankrupt from Crusades), but to gain spiritual favor and absolution of sin. Therefore, if the person you were speaking to was asking if there was some sort of continuity between the Crusades and the various global conquests of the 19th century (a view that seems to be popular in the Middle East these days), the answer is no.
 
I wouldn't go as far, but the question would be, do you have the resources to put down the rebels yourself and does the military power come from you? Before I continue, I'm no medievist, so I sincerely invite discussion and to be corrected!
Now early kings of France didn't really have that kind of power, and indeed we see the power is really fluid, with France being kind of a loose confederation.
However, we do see the king of France being able to grant the whole of Normandie to Rollon, by his own authority, without this being an empty promise to be made de facto by force, like the Americas.
But after Philippe Auguste, the king has power in his name and rules. As in, he can knock heads without begging other rulers for help. The Pope couldn't do that, all he could do was ask others to intervene on his behalf. It's a bit similar to being part of NATO I'd say. You can ask but it's not guaranteed, and just because you're the head of NATO doesn't mean you control your members military

'We have heard that you are the sort of man who sends other men to do battle on your behalf- (implying weakness, for a true Akkadian king defeats enemies not by force of arms, but by the 'aura of dread' imbued by the Great Gods)' -Tukulti-Ninurta to Kashtiliash IV,,

This among other Assyrian provocations that were intended to demean Kashtiliash IV's (1232-1225 BCE)manhood and his piety to the gods broke the two century long Karduniash (kingdom of Babylon) geopolitical strategy against Assyria. For the past many decades, Karduniash had fended off Assyria through an unorthodox strategy. Assyria possessed superiority in many aspects to their southern rivals, namely in terms of military centralization and the mass conscription that Assyria utilized. Assyrian military mindset was by leaps and bounds, the most centralized and militarist in the Bronze Age, with the going trend that there existed only a few occupations in society, yet all were subsumed by the overarching Assyrian imperial mission of universal and total conquest.

Additionally, Assyria possessed ready amounts of soldiers and a fearsome and warlike nobility who clamored for war every year. In fact, Assyrian kings who did not wage war were said to be impious and could be in threat of losing their heads, as Shalmaneser V did in 722-721 BCE. Considering this, Karduniash worked under the conception that their enemy, Assyria was a foe too great to defeat in single pitched battle and too vicious to battle without special stratagems. However, Kardunaish possessed and developed a series of advantages with which to control, subdue and for a period, dominate the most formidable of all Bronze Age states.

The first of this was Karduniash leveraged its trade, prestige and armies to acquire series of loose vassals across the Zagros mountain ranges. These vassals were little more than independent kings who were acquired and ordered about by Karduniash for the sake of withholding Assyria and for gaining access to Babylonian goods and markets. However, these vassals did not serve just a military role, but a role in terms of acquiring and depriving Assyria of goods from the east, mostly horses. Hence, the famous statement to the king Kadashman-Enlil II 'in the land of Karduniash, horses are more abundant than straw and gold is like dust.'

Karduniash had acquired all sorts of soft powers and defensive, economic and prestige powers with which to combat superior foes, who in theory were Karduniash vassals (since the 1300s, the Assyrian kings, were in theory vassals of Karduniash, but were constantly recalcitrant and rebellious unless outright occupation). Such was the situation that when Assyrian kings went to battle with Karduniash in the 13th century, the Karduniash implemented a strategy of avoiding all confrontation in pitched battles and took to ordering its vassals to attack from the east and north while the Karduniash army would flee from Assyria and lead them into fruitless chases across riverways and deserts. All the while, Assyrian military command was, despite its mobilization, unable to maintain war for long periods of time due to the isolation imposed upon them by the trade sanctions from Karduniash. Hence Assyrian military units would despite victories in battle and holding clear superiority in all matters of military engagement, even in terms of logistics, at several points were forced to submit to vassalage under Karduniash.

Only whence Assyria both expanded north against the Hittites and other peoples north of Assyria, did the tide begin to turn for Assyria against its economically and diplomatically superior foe in the south. Assyria succeeded in goading Karduniash into pitched battle without any strategy other than engaging Assyria outright.... One can see where this story goes; the Assyrians massacred the Karduniash and established a vassal state over the region.

To put it into brief terms, the breaking of the old Karduniash schemes of holding Assyria, its northern and superior foe, in place, led to total and complete defeat. Yet, in prior times, it is difficult to argue that Assyria was not at least a reluctant vassal to Karduniash and precisely due to the effective geopolitical formula implemented by Karduniash.

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I present this example to you in brief as an exploration into the notion that there can be manifold schemes and stratagems to rule than simply 'marching to battle and defeating the enemy in a clash of blades!' It is with nuance and understanding that we embark upon the rendering of history as a world filled with diverse authority, systems and hegemony. Not always is it as the phrase goes 'they believe matters to be complex, yet it is the sword which is sharpened for the engagement' (-marshal of the Abbasid caliphate during the Mongol invasion of Iraq).

So my question to you is, is your opinion that the Papacy in order to enforce his authority, must do as Tukulti-Ninurta bid his rival to do? To march into battle himself, to march into Germany and enforce his authority? Or is it not a better strategy what Innocent III did in otl? Castrate the political and legal power of Philip of Swabia, divide claimants into three, send one to Sicily under Papal guard, throw the Welf against the Staufen and then compel with threats the new victor, Otto IV of Welf to come to Rome and prostrate. Thereupon, Otto IV did so and afterwards, recanted and invaded Sicily. It is at that point, after implementing all of his advantages, that Innocent III 'went for the kill' and brandished the sharpened sword and proved Papal hegemonic lordship over Europe....

1. Excommunicated Otto IV.
2. Placed the Empire under Interdiction.
3. Innocent III declared Otto IV bereft of the Kingdom of Empire, Germany, Middle Francia and Italy.
4. Declared Otto IV a renegade and called all men of his realm to take his head.
5. Declared the young Frederick of Sicily as Emperor of Rome and universal king of the composite monarchies
6. Promulgated an order fro Crusade upon Otto IV and any of his faction that maintains his royalty.
7. Raised a Crusader army in his realm and attacked Otto IV in the vicinity of Abruzzi and decisively defeated him in Italy, forcing Otto IV to flee to Germany and conclude an alliance with the beleaguered John Lackland of England so as to protect each other against the interdicts of Innocent III.
8. The Crusades led to Innocent III ordering Philip II of France to dethrone Otto IV, who already beaten in battle by the Papacy, was far weaker than normal.
9. France crushes the two renegade kings. Otto IV returns to Brunswick and submits to Innocent III and dies a sad man deprived of all honor. John of England is forced to kiss the feet of Innocent III (note, not of Philip II, it is clear that the one who was the true war leader in this instance, was Innocent III, not Philip II). Whereupon Innocent III affirmed himself as king of England and then returned the crown to John and sent him back to England as a humbled and weak vassal state. To use an American slang, 'France was the cleanup team.'

This formula is a system on a grand scale to a degree of what Alexander VI was implementing upon his own vassals in the duchy of Spoleto or the former Exarchate. Using all sorts of schemes other than simply marching about as a tyrant to enforce his authority in feudal terms. It is my contention, that all of France, Germany, Italy, Middle Francia and so forth were vassals of the Papacy to a degree similar to that of Ravenna. They may rebel, they may be only loosely held legally, yet it is still the case under my interpretation.

Furthermore, the Papacy ruled this confederation through a myriad of legal, spiritual, feudal and military means. It was not an empire like Assyria, who in order to assert power, had to march about with an army every year and assert power. Nay, the Papacy was a subtle entity, which played under the motto of 'it is no strength to slay enemies with the sword, much greater is the power and strength to convert your enemies, to hear your words in their mouths.' Most surely, the Papacy operated under the idea that the states of Europe were generally having resources in excess of the Papacy, but otherwise were manipulated and controlled by the Papacy. As well, there was always a sense of unity in Europe in the Medieval Era, that pervaded what we see now as national entities. The Papacy, acted as the most clear and sublime example of a universal lord over Europe, while the king of France and Holy Roman Emepror oft coveted such universal temporal aurthority; this is as Girogio Falco argues, the fundamental conflict of war, propaganda and economics for the soul of Europe in the Middle Ages, a battle for who was to be the universal master of Europe. Ultimately, none could 'breach the barrier' and the result was localism and insular relations between European states which was the prelude to nationalism and is the mother of our current world in relation to Europe.
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It should also be mentioned in passing, that the Papacy permitted the expansion of Philip II. If one observes the change in the borders of royal France, you will notice, certain lands are not touched in the slightest. These are the Papal direct holdings across France.... Which also, interestingly, increased after the expansions of Philip II, there was almost definitely a grand French royal-Papal closeness of proximity rarely mentioned. Such proximity was the foremost importance in the centralization of the French royalty and the assertion of royal feudal power over the excommunicated Angevins, the interdicted Toulousians and the other varied thoroughly rebellious lords of the realm who had been baskets of rebellion ever since House Capet arose.
 
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I can't say I'm a fan of the idea that the Pope actually controlled a state (outside of the direct temporal Papal possessions). The Papacy may have wanted to establish the idea that states were subservient to God and hence to his representative of Earth but that had never achieved any significant traction from Charlemagne onwards. the Papacy had great moral authority but moral authority doesn't get you temporal authority over the conquered lands.

As for the original question, were the crusades colonisation - my opinion is not so much in the Levant. There was never a practical attempt to make them dependent on a metropole which was the crusader states great weakness. There is more of a case for the Iberian and Prussian crusades to be considered colonisation as the states evolving from these crusades did establish a power base which they extended through conquest and settlers. The Levantine crusades never really moved beyond an extended raid.

There was no such thing as moral authority as it pertains to Medieval historical milieu. There is only legality and legitimacy therein. Papal power never rested upon the notion that they were the Vicar of Christ, in terms of temporal matters. But solely upon two factors: the Translatio Imperii and the Donation of Pepin. The former informed the Latin legal idea that the Papacy has the authority to transfer political institutions to others or itself. Hence, the Papacy transferred the Empire of Rome unto itself and then transferred it to the Franks and the Anglo-Saxons. Other kingdoms that had not been treated to this, were not seen as temporal vassals, take for instance Norway, Hungary, Denmark and Poland; all were never subjected to the Papal temporal claims: only Germany, France, Middle Francia, Italy and England and their derivatives (Castile, Leon, Navarre, Aragon and Portugal). The latter asserted the feudal understanding of Papal supremacy over other lands. Pepin conceded or affirmed that the Papacy and his holding, wherever they may be, would be superior to that of his direct holdings or that of his vassals. In other words, the Papacy became to Pepin what Pepin was to his vassals; royal lands were above that of the lands held by lesser nobles of non-royal stock.
 
I'm curious John, why do you bring up Innocent III as an example so frequently?

Personally a bigger fan of Honorius III, but again I'm curious.

@Tanc49

It should also be mentioned in passing, that the Papacy permitted the expansion of Philip II. If one observes the change in the borders of royal France, you will notice, certain lands are not touched in the slightest. These are the Papal direct holdings across France.... Which also, interestingly, increased after the expansions of Philip II, there was almost definitely a grand French royal-Papal closeness of proximity rarely mentioned. Such proximity was the foremost importance in the centralization of the French royalty and the assertion of royal feudal power over the excommunicated Angevins, the interdicted Toulousians and the other varied thoroughly rebellious lords of the realm who had been baskets of rebellion ever since House Capet arose.
Might want to merge your posts.

Under the current forum software the pinging and quoting works even if it's edited in rather than being there from the start.
 

Derek Pullem

Kicked
Donor
Isn't this backwards - if the concept of Translatio Imperii was recognised by Peppin and Charlemagne (and later Otto I) there would be no need for the Donation of Peppin or the Diploma Ottonianum as the right of the Papcy to hold the Papal states would be unarguable.

if Translatio Imperii existed then it was a direct transfer from Constantinople to Charlemagne with the Papacy only providing the mechanism for the transfer to take place i.e. the coronation
 
Isn't this backwards - if the concept of Translatio Imperii was recognised by Peppin and Charlemagne (and later Otto I) there would be no need for the Donation of Peppin or the Diploma Ottonianum as the right of the Papcy to hold the Papal states would be unarguable.

if Translatio Imperii existed then it was a direct transfer from Constantinople to Charlemagne with the Papacy only providing the mechanism for the transfer to take place i.e. the coronation

No, because the Translatio occurred prior to its gifting to others. It is also interpreted in the Latin context as not simply the transfer of a single legal title, but the justification of kingship in a sense. Regardless, they are distinct in that the Don. of Pepin, is almost like an affirmation of Papal temporal superiority. Whilst the trans-imperii is a statement on the idea that the Pope can transfer kingship as need be. Initially, in the case of Byzantium, this was for religious reasons; the Papacy then took the conception of kingship and foisted it upon itself and then gifted it to the Northern parts of Europe while remaining an entity who had superior feudal authority per the Don. of Pepin. When you combine these two, you gain the ideal of temporal Papal supremacy in the Medieval Europe. It is a romantic and idealistic understanding, but we cannot deny its existence.
 
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