Q: Mestizo Populations

Just a (hopefully) quick question; how long does it tend to take for a significant Mestizo population to arise? For example, if, say, the Portuguese put more effort into sending settlers into Goa, is there a chance that, given enough time, you might wind up with a situation similar to that of Mexico, where there is a large chunk of the city's population made up of a mixed Portuguese/Indian ethnic group? I imagine the group would be majority Catholic.

I'm sort of pondering what kinds of "ethnicities" could arise relatively late in the historical game. A bit like how the Afrikaaners are "new" in terms of ethnological develpment.
 
Just a (hopefully) quick question; how long does it tend to take for a significant Mestizo population to arise? For example, if, say, the Portuguese put more effort into sending settlers into Goa, is there a chance that, given enough time, you might wind up with a situation similar to that of Mexico, where there is a large chunk of the city's population made up of a mixed Portuguese/Indian ethnic group? I imagine the group would be majority Catholic.

I'm sort of pondering what kinds of "ethnicities" could arise relatively late in the historical game. A bit like how the Afrikaaners are "new" in terms of ethnological develpment.


Another very interesing modern development is the "Caldoches" of New Caledonia : they consider themselves as the Metropolitan French representation (on the contrary of the Kanaks, the natives) but were in fact mostly people exiled from Algeria after it's conquest began in 1830. So I think a possibility is that Colonial power A invades country B and exile them in some outer colony C, and then, you have an AB mixed population in this place C.
 
Just a (hopefully) quick question; how long does it tend to take for a significant Mestizo population to arise? For example, if, say, the Portuguese put more effort into sending settlers into Goa, is there a chance that, given enough time, you might wind up with a situation similar to that of Mexico, where there is a large chunk of the city's population made up of a mixed Portuguese/Indian ethnic group? I imagine the group would be majority Catholic.

I'm sort of pondering what kinds of "ethnicities" could arise relatively late in the historical game. A bit like how the Afrikaaners are "new" in terms of ethnological develpment.
Well Paraguay did it in one generation so, something like 25 years of forced miscegenation, and 75-100 years in a more "natural" way if you don´t put obstacles to the miscegenation.
 
By the way, the current Portuguese Prime Minister is of Goese ancestry. Just look for "Goeses" or "Goese Catholic" online.
 

Philip

Donor
For example, if, say, the Portuguese put more effort into sending settlers into Goa, is there a chance that, given enough time, you might wind up with a situation similar to that of Mexico, where there is a large chunk of the city's population made up of a mixed Portuguese/Indian ethnic group?

I agree that this can happen very quickly - in the first generation born there- if you are sending singles as settlers. If you send families, you probably won't see a large mixed group until at least the second and probably third generation born there.
 
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Somewhat related question, was there ever much métissage in French Algeria? If not, why not? It seems strange to me that there wouldn't be much considering the relatively significant proportion of the population the pieds-noirs represented.
 
Somewhat related question, was there ever much métissage in French Algeria? If not, why not? It seems strange to me that there wouldn't be much considering the relatively significant proportion of the population the pieds-noirs represented.

A child of a European and a North African is not really visual different from South Europeans. As such the children born to a Algerian, other and French/other European father was simply another Pied Noir. For a mixed population to be distinct, they need to be visual distinct.
 
A child of a European and a North African is not really visual different from South Europeans. As such the children born to a Algerian, other and French/other European father was simply another Pied Noir. For a mixed population to be distinct, they need to be visual distinct.

To be honest, I have not found anything about a marriage between a Pieds-Noir and an Algerian, I think the reason is racism : probably not everyone was racist, but most of the colonists were, and since the colonisation ended in the 60s for Algeria, if a daughter of Pied Noir was in love with an Algerian guy, she could probably not mary him, because her family wouldn't accept.
 
A large chunk of Goa was indeed mixed-race, they're still a somewhat important minority in India.
By the way, the current Portuguese Prime Minister is of Goese ancestry. Just look for "Goeses" or "Goese Catholic" online.

This is actually a bit of a misconception. Goa never had a very large mestizo population. The Portuguese did send settlers in significant numbers and vigorously promoted miscegenation, but the Indian caste system proved to be a hindrance. Even after converting to christianity, most native Goans rejected intermarriage. As such, all mixed marriages were between Portuguese people and Goan of the "untouchable" castes. Eventually, the Portuguese just ended up losing interest.

It also didn't help that Goa was alwayls a small enclave and which frequently received immigrants from other parts of the Indian subcontinent.

The overwhelming majority of Goans were always Konkani, including catholics. They adopted many Portuguese customs, but they were not mixed-raced.

I think the most success Portugal ever had with miscegenation (though I think it was mostly accidental in this case) was in Cape Verde, which has 71% mixed-raced population at the present.

It's worth noting that some Portuguese-Asian creole peoples, such as the Kristang, proved to be surprisingly resilient, though.
 
To be honest, I have not found anything about a marriage between a Pieds-Noir and an Algerian, I think the reason is racism : probably not everyone was racist, but most of the colonists were, and since the colonisation ended in the 60s for Algeria, if a daughter of Pied Noir was in love with an Algerian guy, she could probably not mary him, because her family wouldn't accept.
I was thinking it was more likely to be a religious thing, would the child be Muslim or Catholic? I feel like either option is gonna piss off one community or the other.
 
Another very interesing modern development is the "Caldoches" of New Caledonia : they consider themselves as the Metropolitan French representation (on the contrary of the Kanaks, the natives) but were in fact mostly people exiled from Algeria after it's conquest began in 1830. So I think a possibility is that Colonial power A invades country B and exile them in some outer colony C, and then, you have an AB mixed population in this place C.
I think it was a French penal colony, but what do you mean by "people exiled from Algeria"? If that's the case, then why aren't Caldoches Muslim?
 
To be honest, I have not found anything about a marriage between a Pieds-Noir and an Algerian, I think the reason is racism : probably not everyone was racist, but most of the colonists were, and since the colonisation ended in the 60s for Algeria, if a daughter of Pied Noir was in love with an Algerian guy, she could probably not mary him, because her family wouldn't accept.
My family is pied noir and I've never heard of mixed union. This would simply be unacceptable.
On the other hand, Muslim Algerians did have rights which precludes the more... Unsavory unions as you might see in the American South.
 
Would producing a large, métis, and catholic population even have been possible if the French government had encouraged it? Or would there simply have been too much resistance from the indigenous population? I'd have to imagine if they could culturally assimilate a large proportion of the population through métissage it would make the country easier to rule. What conditions prevented métissage in Algeria that were clearly not present in Spanish and Portuguese America? Was it primarily religion or something else?
 
I think it was a French penal colony, but what do you mean by "people exiled from Algeria"? If that's the case, then why aren't Caldoches Muslim?

By "exiled from Algeria" I meant sent to this penal colony under the "Code de l'indigénat". And ... they just stopped identifying as muslims for most of them. It happens ... but apparently some of their descendants are converting to Islam again under the influence of Indonesian muslims
 

Brunaburh

Gone Fishin'
Just a (hopefully) quick question; how long does it tend to take for a significant Mestizo population to arise? For example, if, say, the Portuguese put more effort into sending settlers into Goa, is there a chance that, given enough time, you might wind up with a situation similar to that of Mexico, where there is a large chunk of the city's population made up of a mixed Portuguese/Indian ethnic group? I imagine the group would be majority Catholic.

I'm sort of pondering what kinds of "ethnicities" could arise relatively late in the historical game. A bit like how the Afrikaaners are "new" in terms of ethnological develpment.

You need a variety of circumstances. The right population density needs to be there, too low and the dominated group is absorbed or wiped out by the immigrants (most Australian ethnicities, North American Indians), too high and the mestizo group is largely reabsorbed by the native population (India, Angola, Philippines). Long periods of contact are necessary, as mixing without continued admixture is not a great way to create mestizaje, and a separate social role defined in law for the mestizo group is useful (see Spanish empire). In low population areas, frontier conditions or isolation often produce mestizo groups which then colonise other areas, whether beyond the frontier or in marginal land. The Griquas and Baasters followed this pattern in Southern Africa, the Metis and tri-racial isolates did something similar in North America, thus avoiding assimilation.
 
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