Q how to survive a gothic speaking people?

*cracks knuckles*

In the 300s AD, some of the Goths flee south-east into the Caucasus. They emerge into the Kura lowlands, where they push out the last calls and establish their own kingdom. Said kingdom survives into the modern day (mostly through a combination of diplomacy and dumb luck.)

And that, my child, is the origin of the Kirastrigathi.
 
Your right that the South Slav's might go elsewhere. .....Greece or Bulgaria perhaps?
South Slavs will probably go to Ukraine or Volga or probably even beyond that, into the Central Russia.
Your right that the South Slav's might go elsewhere. .....Greece or Bulgaria perhaps?
Bulgaria is already occupied by Goths and Vandals, by then. Greece is a stronghold of the Byzantines and I doubt if they can survive the populations who would be hostile, in case of an invasion as you're talking about a region that is the core of the Byzantine empire.

A remote possibility exists where they might cross the Mountains near Georgia and Armenia, and then go into parts of Middle East or Persia, or into the non-core regions of the Byzantine empire, like Syria, etc.

Where it can become relevant to Islam is in recruits for Byzantine wars. Especially if they are also present in Dobruja and Crimea.
You mean Byzantines recruiting the Gothic or Vandal soldiers to fight the Arabs? If the Goths and Vandals are Pagan or Arian, the Byzantines wouldn't be willing to allow "Heathens" to fight to reclaim their Holy lands, or would they?
This should also have consequences for the East Mark.
Meaning?
But I'm not sure I'd work on the premise of a long survival of Byzantium. That would make such a scenario a much more complex effort for a start and the butterflies are too great in number.
Butterflying the Fourth Crusade and the Slavic invasions of Greece and Byzantium/Asia Minor would be what such a Gothic dominated Balkans would do. That would easily help the Byzantines reclaim the Asia Minor and survive.
 

Zen9

Banned
I think a Gothic Empire in the Balkans is a different beast from a Gothic Kingdom in part of the Balkans.
If the people are to survive and prosper, then concentration in one or more parts is the logical outcome.
Spread throughout is the path to dilution and dispersal.
So if they hold Dalmatia it follows that they cannot reasonably hold Thrace and Dacia as well.
 
I think a Gothic Empire in the Balkans is a different beast from a Gothic Kingdom in part of the Balkans.
If the people are to survive and prosper, then concentration in one or more parts is the logical outcome.
Spread throughout is the path to dilution and dispersal.
So if they hold Dalmatia it follows that they cannot reasonably hold Thrace and Dacia as well.
Hmm. That's something to be thought about. If you look at it, even South Slavs would also have been in smaller numbers, once upon a time.

But today, they are a majority in the Balkans, right? Beyond Mid Bulgaria and Albania, Balkans was actually sparsely populated.

We can have Gothic and Vandal confederations, instead of invading Italy, Spain and Africa, settle en masse in the sparsely populated Balkans and begin setting up settlements, farms and city states there. By two Centuries or so, you can have them as a majority in the Balkans, in place of South Slavs.

South Slavs and West Slavs could then be deflected into Russia/Ukraine region or something like that, or be conquered by Goths itself.
 

Zen9

Banned
If they submit to Attila then they could survive and remain in place.
Being Arian Christians they could argue themselves into this having less than sparkling relations with Catholics and Orthodox.
Avoiding the siren lure of the chaos in Africa and western Europe.

Ostrogoths to Dalmatia confronting Odoacer, Visigoths to Thrace
, Gepids in Dacia. Vandals...?
 

Zen9

Banned
They'd still loose the plains to nomads , still likely the Hungarians. But holding the rougher territory that's defensible.
This could even be a straight swap of Slavs for East Germanic peoples. Potentially the same sort of rivalries and conflicts. The lure of unification of the Gothic peoples (including the Vandals and Gepids), a longing to resurrect Eomanrics Empire. ....
 
A remote possibility exists where they might cross the Mountains near Georgia and Armenia, and then go into parts of Middle East or Persia, or into the non-core regions of the Byzantine empire, like Syria, etc.

Assuming it isnt butterflied, the Goths would likely face less pressure to convert from Arianism in the Muslim world than the Christian one. This might in turn help them to hold onto a distinct culture longer.

You mean Byzantines recruiting the Gothic or Vandal soldiers to fight the Arabs? If the Goths and Vandals are Pagan or Arian, the Byzantines wouldn't be willing to allow "Heathens" to fight to reclaim their Holy lands, or would they?

I mean, 200 years later they paid Germanic Pagans in the form of the Varangians to fight, and after 400 they hired heretic Franks to reclaim the Holy Land (from their perspective) in the form of the Crusades.
 

Zen9

Banned
Actually I've always wondered about the Islamic Conquest of Hispania.
Arian Christianity is mvh more compatible with Islam and it's a much shorter journey to conversion to Islam from there.

This might help explain both the succes and the retention of the Vandal name into Al-Andalusia.

In effect Arians could have facilitated the process. Converting as well.
 
Assuming it isnt butterflied, the Goths would likely face less pressure to convert from Arianism in the Muslim world than the Christian one. This might in turn help them to hold onto a distinct culture longer.
In the Quoted text, I meant South Slavs could migrate that way if the Goths were established in the Balkans and not Goths themselves migrate into the West Asia.
 
It's in the title.
Multiple PODs but not quite sure which is the strongest case....

Remain in Poland?
Hold out against the Huns in Crimea?
Somewhere in the Balkans?
And then we get to Italy and Hispania....
Caucasus Goths would be interesting. Or an Iranized Alanic- Gothic kingdom.
 
Assuming it isnt butterflied, the Goths would likely face less pressure to convert from Arianism in the Muslim world than the Christian one. This might in turn help them to hold onto a distinct culture longer.
Even if they go into the Middle East via Caucasus, they in most cases, will land in Armenia or Byzantine Anatolia, both of which were Christian. Secondly, they would in most to all cases, settle in the Anatolia or Caucasus itself as the regions beyond are arid and hot.

So, a very little chance the Byzantines won't convert them to Orthodoxy. These are simply, core Greek regions and too strongly held. Also, there was no Islam till the 7th Century by when, the migrations would have long completed.
 
I would be interesting to see Gothic and Vandalic settled Balkans without the invasion of Western Roman Empire and eventually having the Goths/Vandals become a good part of the Byzantine Empire, with them expanding into Asia Minor too, with one or two dynasties of them ruling Byzantium, identifying as "Gothic Romans".

How the Eastern Roman Empire with a Gothic-Roman character develop relations with the Western Empire which would be mostly of Gallo-Roman character, would be quite interesting.
 
The Goths originated in the Baltic region. Maybe the language dominates in south Scandinavia, or more particularly south Sweden? Alternately the Visgoths somehow are a bit more viable as a ruling class and the language survives in the Iberian region?
 

Zen9

Banned
How about something simple.
Say Theoderic leaves some wayward cousin in charge of Dalmatia and he turns out to rise to the challenge.
Goths in Dalmatia begin to settle down and entrench themselves.

In the events that lead to Belisarious's invasion of Italy, said governor of Dalmatia manages to keep distance from this and appease the Eastern Emperor enough to avoid invasion and Conquest.

In the aftermath, Goths begin to migrate onto Dalmatia.
Byzantine rulers viewing this remnant state as a bulwark in the northwest.

This might loose the coast to Venice later on, or in a potential ironic twist it might make Venice increasingly a Gothic city state.
 
Where ever you have them settle they need to be thick enough on the ground to dominate linguisticly and become the language that everyone needs to learn to do business.
 
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